The Perfect Storm...

Discussion in 'Sun City General Discussions' started by BPearson, Jun 13, 2021.

  1. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    Tomorrow, Monday June 14 will be a very interesting morning. The RCSC board meeting is scheduled and after looking at the agenda and at the new plan B alternative for the Mountainview project, i see the potential for the "perfect storm." I've also seen two emails circulating about sports venues at Mountainview being eliminated and members of said clubs being encouraged to show up and voice their concerns.

    Throw in the proposal to hold off moving forward until lumber/building materials comes down until at least 2022 and that should have the performing arts lovers in a fit of rage as well. I just may have to slink into the back of the auditorium and sit quietly by and watch how this unfolds.

    To add to the misery index, they are completely ignoring, at least at this point, what is happening with Viewpoint lake and the coming move to the states 5th phase of their waster management plan. The good news is that won't become a reality for at least a couple of years. Sadly phase 4 of the plan will also reduce water allocation per course and that is kicking in next year (if memory serves me).

    The more i pay attention, the more i think being dumb and in the dark may be the best course of actions...certainly less painful.
  2. FYI

    FYI Active Member

    Perhaps that's the method behind the madness of why they want to limit speech to 3 minutes??? Of course that doesn't go into affect until it passes all three readings unless they waive the third reading?
  3. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    Except they already have a 3 minute rule on one segment but now they want it across the board. Yup, just gonna sit quiet in the back and listen. I'll post a report after.
  4. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    I went to the meeting. I sat quietly in the corner and listened and then i had to get up and speak. Good sized crowd given it is June and virtually everyone that is going to be gone has left. Probably 100 people, maybe more and mostly pickleball. They stayed more passive than i would have expected though some of the board members got testy about the murmuring and bitching. The meeting lasted 3 hours in spite of the 3 minute rule being passed and the third reading voted as not it became the rule.

    Kind of disjointed as people started speaking before the architect did his presentation. Some people spoke and some opted to wait until after his pitch (which was pretty good btw). Unfortunately the board voted for Plan 2 which was repositioning the building so it faced 107th (kind of) rather than 1a that had it facing Mountainview. So when people got up to speak, it was already a done deal. If you watch the video of it, i said i liked the new plan better, it just flows way better.

    That said, the tragic aspect of all of this is the board would not commit to building new pickleball courts in phase 3. The ugly aspect of this is once they start phase 1, sometime near the end of 2022 or beginning of 2023, pickleball, lawn bowling, tennis and mini-golf will be closed for years. 2, 3, 4 or 5 are all debatable. Phase 3 is sometime after phase 2 and that all is sandwiched between the viewpoint lake fix and what happens with the golf course roughs where they will not be getting water for by 2025. The golf course conversions could be as much as 3 to 4 million dollars per course.

    All of which leaves my head spinning and whey i would not want to serve on the board any time soon. I will say this for any board member or potential board member reading this:. Figure out where to put 8-10 temporary courts in the next year or so when you do start Mountainview all the pickleball players aren't told to go to Marinette. They cannot accommodate them all there and it is a huge selling point for Sun City to have multiple locations for people to play at.

    All in all it just reinforces why i stay away.
  5. FYI

    FYI Active Member

    I called that one right, yup, they waived the third reading.
  6. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    Ya nailed it FYI. Funny thing is the whole idea of giving three readings is for it to get a proper hearing. I have no problem with passing on multiple readings when everyone is in agreement, like the insurance increases they voted on. Karen's point that it had objections by two board members should have been reason enough to let it have all three. Clearly they wanted it in play for today's meeting.

    The more i think about today, the more i fear where this is headed. Phase 1 at Mountainview is the theater, gym and one of the pools. Phase 2 is the removal of the existing pool and replacing it. Phase 3 is the open land where whatever they are going to put there, be it an ADA mini-golf, pickleball courts or less likely lawn bowling or tennis courts. The problem is we know the lake is an issue with no known price tag but it could be huge. We know the golf courses will be forced to make conversions to desert landscaping during this time period. We know those costs will be between 2 and 4 million dollars per course. From past practice we know the board just shovels money at the courses, because they feel they have to.

    The point here is as phase 1 (approximately two years once they start) plods along and other stuff starts popping up, phase 2 and phase 3 will be pushed further down the road. This community cannot and should not be forced to consolidate all pickleball play at one venue. It will kill sales to pball players and anger the existing ones. It's why the board couldn't or wouldn't commit to pickleball courts at Mountainview. It's like knowing a train wreck is coming and all you can do is sit and watch.

    Finally the last point is to remind everyone golf is supposed to be self-sustaining. We now know the cost of seed is going up by 60%, the cost of water is going to go higher as well as dry up and everything else will see increases that will make it really difficult to keep costs to play reasonable. I've never argued PIF can't be used for improvements that meet the criteria, you can't use to cover the cost of operation. They set it up that way (self-sustaining) when the RCSC finally agreed to take the courses in 1977 because they realized the potential for them to become a money pit. This too is going to get way ugly before it gets better.

    In many ways, i feel bad for Bill Cook, tough time to take the helm.
  7. FYI

    FYI Active Member

    Well....without going into detail I'll just say that according to RR's parliamentary procedure the motion was incorrectly made if the intent was for the 3 minute rule to continue in all future meetings. The way the motion was made only limited the time for that one meeting and if they had a real parliamentarian on board and someone challenged the limit at a future meeting, they would have won and the limit would no longer be in existence.
    BPearson likes this.
  8. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    I would never argue your point FYI, way beyond my pay grade.

    I did want to go back and listen to the president's opening remarks. She asked me if i had heard them? I said i missed some of them, but in actuality, i wanted to listen again so to be clear on my point here. Over the years i've given more presentations than i care to try and count. Early on, i assumed people knew what i was talking about. I quickly came to understand most people aren't as knowledgeable as i expected them to be. Especially when i would start throwing around acronyms and thinking people knew what they meant and what i was saying.

    Along the way i took communication classes where they told us if listeners don't understand, it was more on the presenter than it was on those listening. I took that to heart and came to value clear and unambiguous communications. People accuse me of being blunt, but i find that far more acceptable than pretending people know what i am talking about. I try and assume people know less than perhaps they do. To the point, Sue's opening comments regarding AWR and what might happen were anything but clear. Who in the room had any idea what AWR was/is or has any real understanding of the lake problem? Or for that matter if one even exists? My guess is, not many. Worse yet, when blowing through the comments, it was all lost to me as to the potential impact of both the lake and the golf course and how that could affect the Mountainview project going forward.

    Worse yet, everything members had seen in the original plans showed pickleball being there (plans #1 and 1a). The email that went out showing plan #2 the week before clearly eliminated all of the club sports to reposition the building. The only mention of anything replacing it was an ADA mini-golf course. The president emphasized all of the furor was over "rumors." Sorry gang, the way everything was presented was setting yourselves up for those "rumors" to grow into the resentment you felt, saw and heard. Adding to the angst was this new proposal came in June when so many were gone and the fact the board couldn't/wouldn't commit to pickleball being at Mountainview somewhere in the future.

    I found it less than comforting to have a couple of board members try and soothe the crowd with the fact they too were pickleball players; kind of. It still comes down to how messy this has all gotten. Communication is almost always key. That and absolute and total transparency. Numbers and percentages were tossed out on the stage yesterday that meant nothing. We've spent the past 15 years keeping things away from the maddening crowd and now we are starting to pay the price for shrouding members from what is going on.

    The old adage, knowledge is power is an absolute in my book. Sharing that knowledge only enhances the community. Hoarding it becomes counter-productive, especially when you/we are facing the challenges we are now facing. We'll all get by, we'll all survive but as i have been saying for the past 10 plus years, we could have been so much better, so much more effective and in such a better place to address the ugliness in front of us.
  9. FYI

    FYI Active Member

    Yeah, I agree. I don't think she put enough emphasis on just how seriously the water problems are going to effect Mountain View.

    Granted, until they get their marching orders from the state they don't really know what the impact will be on the PIF funds, but whether you're talking about the desert landscape or the leaking lake, each one has its own major price tag!

    I think I'll probably be pushing-up daisies before I see the completion of Mountain View?
    BPearson likes this.
  10. IndependentCynic

    IndependentCynic Active Member

    "they don't really know what the impact will be on the PIF funds"

    Do they care? In the past the Board simply raised the PIF to meet their needs -- otherwise the PIF would still be closer to it's original what, $750?, instead of the current $3500.
  11. SCR

    SCR Active Member

    Couple of thing s I got from the board meeting.

    1. Some board members are upset because they believe they are being admonished over lack of information or missing information on Pickleball at mountainview.
    Because their effort to inform was less than stellar they should have expected push back.

    2. The entire board meeting was about pickleball.

    3. Darla Akins stated that "people are leaving the meeting early because they were not getting a chance to speak.
    How does Darla know this. Did she stand at the back and ask those leaving early why they were leaving early?
    A blanket statement like that is not warranted without facts to back it up. I believe that members left early from the last board
    meeting because so many other members voiced their complaints and opinions regarding the lack of information on pickleball at mountainview.

    4. There was little to no information regarding ADWR and Lakeview Lake.
    I wholly believe that water is the number 1 issue facing the RCSC - not Mountainview.

    5. IT and Ransomware attacks - Has the RCSC prepared for a Ransomware attack? How quickly can they recover from an attack?
    Does IT backup everything daily (or nightly) so that in the event of a ransomware attack they can recover quickly?
    Will the RCSC pay the ransom if attacked? Can a ransomware attack the RCSC - without a doubt. There must be planning for this.

    6. Has solar been incorporated into the Mountainview? Who is responsible for choosing a solar vendor. Experiences with the last
    round of solar were not good.

    7. The issue of having an accurate count of the number of pickleball users (not number of members) dramatizes the fact that electronic
    digital recording and tracking of users of the pickleball courts is sorely needed. Pencil and paper no longer has a place in the
    21st century. Yes, digital data can have its problems, but swiping a card to record the fact that you are using the pickleball
    facilities is another issue that must be addressed by the board. Data recording is in the best interest of the board and the members of Sun City.

    8. There needs to be more and constant electronic data collection at every single RCSC amenity.
    Data provides knowledge and knowledge is power.

    9. The board briefly touched on the subject of security by stating the the latest iteration of the mountainview plan would only
    have one entrance. One entrance does not solve the security issues of today's world. Will there be cameras in the parking lots with
    multiple angles. Will there be cameras in the interior of the structure? If any security system is included in the mountainview redo,
    will it be integrated into the security system of the RCSC facility on Grand Ave?

    There are just too many issues and concerns with the mountainview redo. It needs to be done, but at the expense of what other
    issues and amenities. Water is the most pressing issue in Sun City with Viewpoint lake running a close second.
    Until the RCSC knows what the ADWR is going to mandate and what it will cost to correct Lakeview lake everything should be put on
    hold. Once there are facts and figures on ADWR and Lakeview the RCSC can better plan for the future.
    BPearson likes this.
  12. FYI

    FYI Active Member

    I think the real problem with the board voting on MV is the fact that nobody really understands what they're voting included! Are they simply voting to go ahead with the project and not yet really defining what amenities there will be other than a theater, a gym, and a resort pool? Or will they be voting on the design of options 1 & 2?

    I think if they're voting on the options they would also be locking themselves into a design that will dictate the limits of what they can provide in that free space? Personally, I would like to see the architects take that empty space and offer-up 4 or 5 different plans with the options. Show me an assortment of plot plans! For instance, if they were to eliminate the lawn bowling because lawn bowling already has other locations, how many pickleball courts could be built? If they left the lawn bowling court then how many pickleball courts could they build? If they built an ADA mini-golf, how much room is left and what could be built in that leftover space...pickleball courts, tennis courts? How many of each? I would like to see a series of mixing and matching venues to see which one offers the best bang for the buck! And I'm not sure the whole thing should be approved until they can show the public the final product? (although most of us will be dead by time MV is completed)

    I also think decisions are being made outside of the open board meetings and the public is being left in the dark?
  13. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    It's long been an issue within the RCSC. For some reasons officers think they are more important than non-officers. The simply reality is the Articles of Incorporation and the By-Laws spell out the duties of the officers. It does not set them apart and aside from the supposed governing body of nine. The minute one two or three of them huddle with the general manager to carve out direction you've lost the intent of a self-governing document. And to be clear, the general manager works for the full board of nine, not a couple of hand picked officers.

    And, SCR is dead spot on, water, water, water. Making decisions on MV when there are unanswered questions regarding Viewpoint Lake and what we will be looking at in 2023 and 2025 with the adjustments coming regarding how much water the golf courses will be getting is crazy. Unless of course we can all agree now when we no longer will be getting water for the roughs they just die and you let golfers play off of the dead ground. My guess is the home owners may not like that outcome.

    Let me say this again. Sun City should not be forced to consolidate pickleball to one venue for the three, four or five years while we are waiting for MV to become a finished product. The sport sells houses, it's that simple. Find another location down south and put 10 or 12 courts in to accommodate them. It is unrealistic to ask everyone playing the game to go to Marinette while MV is closed. Finally, statistics are great, but without all of the data on all of the clubs they don't mean much. And don't give me percentages, give us real numbers.
  14. FYI

    FYI Active Member

    Here's a satirical tongue-in-cheek solution...drain the lake, fill it in, build more pickleball courts! Lol!
  15. Enquirer

    Enquirer Member

    This is what happens when a Community does not have a well executed long range plan. Even when good plans are presented.

    This is what happens when a Community does not have a well executed Security plan (mgt plan, keep on keeping on piecemeal with a contractor we already know), even though good plans are presented.

    This is what happens when a Community has no Technology plan, even though times have changed, our Community leaders are still living in the past.

    They think having one entrance to a building is security, it is not. It is, however, dangerous and a loss of opportunity. In a world where the need for access is increasing, our Community leaders need to think a little more out of the box.

    In a world where even the professional golf organizations that oversee our golf programers say there is a need to cut back on golf acreage, the mere mention of the words “green spaces” causes some Community leaders to run out of the room.

    The idea of filling in the leaking lake (yes, you would have to buy the homes), will likely garner a similar response. Although, it would create more space for the Lakeview renovation.

    I don”t k ow if I am brave enough to observe that Lakeview has capacity and security issues, etc, that Mountain View does not.

    To paraphrase Lewis Carroll, the time has come to speak of many things, and FINALLY do something about them. It is time to STEP OUT OF THE PAST AND INTO THE FUTURE.
  16. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    As we watch all of this unfold and then read E's comments, all i can hear are those brilliant words spoken by a former board president shortly after they got rid of the long range planning committee: "we don't need a long range planning committee, we already have one, it's called the board." Why would you want community input when it is so much more effective to have a couple of board members and the gm make all of the decisions? What could possibly go wrong?
  17. FYI

    FYI Active Member

    I can understand you not wanting to name names, but is that brilliant former board president currently still on the board?
  18. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    Nope, long gone. Yet another in the long line who thought their position on the board was to rubber stamp the gm.
  19. Poison_Ivy

    Poison_Ivy New Member

    Love FYIs comment, "drain the lake, fill it in, build more pickleball courts" Now that's killing 2 birds with one stone!

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