The bastards did it!

Discussion in 'Sun City General Discussions' started by FYI, Jun 27, 2021.

  1. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    Congrats all...4000 reads. People are paying well they should. Spot on FYI, this idea a select few make the decisions and then graciously share their thoughts with others is pure crap. One board member one vote; an officer isn't more important one vote. This has been a long standing problem but it appears to have gotten even more prominent in the last two years. Not bad they carve board members out of some discussions and decision making, now they just fire them is they don't become complicit as they unravel their plans.

    I subscribe to the weekly Sun City West email news blast and interestingly enough, there is a recall petition filed by the members to remove one of the board of directors. Kismet, karma, who knows. All it took was 1000 members to sign and submit a petition to the RCSCW. Interestingly enough, they did list the reasons, all 6 of them. Straight forward, easy and submitted by the members. Yikes.
  2. FYI

    FYI Active Member

    They apparently have a much easier system for recall than Sun City!

    With 4000 reads on this issue, and more than a month until the September meeting, we could have had 4 times the amount of signatures that would be
    required to give our current board their walking papers. We need rules like SCW!
  3. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    One of these days FYI i will look up their documents, but clearly they have kept them close to their original intent. For those who don't know, Sun City West went through some turbulent times around the 2000's and the infighting got intense. The net was an agreement to fall under Arizona State Statute Title 33 which mandates open meetings for everything. It keeps members in the loop well beyond what we do in Sun City.

    Second, i got an email from a friend who is following this from afar and this comment was spot on intuitive: "I suspect that at a bare minimum, one outcome of the entire Karen McAdams fiasco is that the current board and management teams have a better acquaintance with the RCSC documents and that will only continue as the controversies continue into September and beyond." Ya think?

    Finally here is one of the 6 reasons posted for the recall. As you think about the comments on this site and in the Independent regarding how Karen was treated by fellow board members in those final two meetings, it becomes painfully obvious why the gm rewrote our documents to protect directors from actions from the membership. They were down right rude to her. Anyway here is one of the charges against the director facing recall by the membership: "On June 4th, and June 10th, Lou Mancuso's, unprofessional, condescending, intimidating and bullying personality is on display for the governing board, general manager, and the community residents in attendance of these meetings." Sound at all familiar?
  4. FYI

    FYI Active Member

    And they need to get acquainted with what ISN'T there, like the appropriate procedures required to "expel" a director as a member of the board! They will only find those procedures in state statute Title 10! Ut oh!
  5. Say What

    Say What Member

    Ok, here we go. Sorry been away for awhile.
    I have seen board member HOFFER on many many occasions where he was obviously talking business out in public, at rec centers, golf course snack shops and patios, Mcdonald's, and in parking lots at Bell, Lakeview, and Sundial. He has been loud, rude and argumentative to the people he was talking with and a few times he was with Dan and others on the board. If you look at all the committee meetings he has been a part of which includes open meetings nobody makes a decision or says a word without his blessing. Everything used to be recorded. Not anymore.
  6. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    Other than that Say What, how do you feel about Director Hoffer? Just kidding, i get it, not your fav.

    We all know Karen was trying to make a point about the importance of two pickleball venues in Sun City. She tried to get the stats out but was rudely cut off by the president several times (i wonder if that's grounds for recall?). Anyway, i've always known we are undeserved, even with Marinette and Mountainview. How you ask? Simply by paying attention and this morning i opened a site i regularly follow called 55 Places. This thread detailing 5 very popular Arizona communities is suspiciously absent one very prominent name; Sun City Arizona. Here's the header and the link; 5 Phoenix Communities Big on Pickleball.

    Rather than make you click on the link here are the 5 in order and remember, this is with us still having the 7 courts at Mountainview (27 total with 27,000 plus homes).
    1). Sun City Grand, 22 courts, 9,802 homes.
    2). Pebblecreek, 20 courts, 6,200 homes.
    3). Sun City West, 27 courts, 16,900 homes (the information from the site is wrong in that they just added more courts so i went to their site and got accurate information).
    4). Robson Ranch, 16 courts, 4600 homes.
    5). Sun City Anthem at Merrill Ranch, they have 8 pickleball courts but there is only 3800 homes.

    Perhaps now you see why Karen's argument was valid while the rest of the board was ignoring her concerns.
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2021
  7. CMartinez

    CMartinez Active Member

    Hi folks,

    Long time for not posting, but life can take us on various twists and turns we weren't exactly expecting. All is okay, have just taken on some senior relative caretaking duties which has taken me in some different directions I had not expected.

    I truly remember what it is like to want to do the right things for the residents of this great community, and being hog tied by the golfing ruling class. No matter the needs or desires of those of us wanting to expand the outreach of the community, seek alternative venues for the residents of Sun City for enrichment or entertainment, or pose questions regarding some of the finances, it was made clear this type of activity would not be tolerated by the GM and those in power. There would be grand inquisitions of myself regarding decisions I had made, by fellow board members, with the GM present, and was left to defend myself as best as I could. I was berated and belittled by this group of my "peers" about something that involved two people, but the entire group of members. The only people who knew the truth were two people, yet here was an entire group, en masse, making accusations and false statements against myself and another. It was humiliating to say the least and I have never told anyone this story before now. It was so defeating and denigrating to me, I never felt safe ever talking about that afternoon.

    I now read in these pages the same perpetuation of harassment, bullying, and defamation of yet other directors. Their situation is worse, they were forced off of the board for doing the right thing.

    As per the usual kangaroo court the board assembles, the victim is guilty, and there is no other answer allowed, let alone be allowed to defend yourself. And, here we are, all these years later, with some of the same players still trying to control and manipulate the RCSC to their whims and wishes, members be damned.

    Sun City may have been the original, but it is no blueprint for how to run an adult community. With every swipe of the pen, the board, at the behest of the GM, has neutered the members of their abilities and rights to have an interactive dialogue or seek a better form of government for Sun City. The freedoms once known by the members of this community have been stripped away and now those of us living here are mere card holders, pawns to the whims of a select few running the board.

    I truly hope those that have the ability to take these issues a step further, do so and open the closed doors and minds of the cloak and dagger secret meetings to the public. I hope the members get to hear how they have been duped for so long, how they lost their right to have a meeting due to an unreasonable number being arbitrarily set up to keep the membership from ever having a voice in the process. My hope is to see the community become the great leader of active adult communities again and not run by special interests leaving others without a voice.

    I seek no sympathy for my time on the board, I volunteered to be there, and I could have left at any time of my choosing. Overall, I know in my heart, I always tried to do the right thing for the community and its members based upon my own barometer. I also feel such sympathy for those that continue to suffer at the hands of these tyrants and bullies. These recycled retreads have no business being in charge of anything let alone a community of people. The biggest perpetrator of this appalling behavior is in the process of leaving, finally. Don't know what the future holds for the direction of the water issues as well as other personnel issues, but I truly hope the new GM at least has a soul and will seek the correct and proper answers for all, not just a handful of loudmouths.

    I need to add my saving grace from this constant barrage was Bill Pearson. It was with his intervention and continued efforts, this farce of a meeting ended. I will always be grateful to Bill for his common sense and ability to see both sides, even when others lose their perspective.
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2021
  8. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    Hey Carole, hope all is well. Carole was treated pretty poorly by the "good old boys" while serving on the board. Back then they just minimized you, let you rail against whatever was on the docket and out voted you. It's always been how boards work, the majority controls. The exception was within our documents every three months members who were angered by an action could and would show up and let them know. With the quorum at 100 it was the perfect checks and balance to a system out of control.

    It's also exactly why the gm changed it very soon after getting here. Hard to control a mob is they actually have a voice. Take away their voice, enjoy doing whatever the hell you want. As i look back, the minority opinion was always just a blip on the screen, whether what we said was right or wrong. That's why it is so damned curious as to why they felt compelled to fire two board members in the past two years. It makes no sense.

    Carole is spot on, perhaps this will be the catalyst for the new gm to try and return us to a better place of self-governance. We'll see because there is little question this will be a true test under fire.
    CMartinez likes this.
  9. CMartinez

    CMartinez Active Member

    Wouldn't it be great to attain an actual quorum and make the requisite changes during the meeting? Shouldn't it be the membership making decisions for the benefit of the community instead of a few hand picked devotees? The ability to demand open meetings and accountability of the board was lost when the RCSC decided it was more important to be right, than to be a community organization formed for the benefit of the members. Just get your politicians aligned the way you prefer to win, and the membership, and ultimately, the community are the losers.

    Can't file any petitions as the RCSC has control over if you can even create any. The RCSC already has the language in place as to placement of fliers and advertising, so attempting to gather signatures for proxies within the white walls is almost impossible. With the meeting scheduled for October, going door to door in this heat to try and garner signatures for a proxy run is just not feasible, too little time.

    We all want our community back and the membership valued for who we are, the true backbone of Sun City. I, for one, want a true self governance style of government in place. I want the management of the board to be aligned with Title 33, where there are options to deal with meetings, out of control board members, and information clearly and openly shared. No more closed door meetings or decisions made by email and text messages. You can legislate how a corporation has decided to label itself. You can't legislate decency, moral fiber, or personal fortitude. It takes the community to hold those in power accountable to a certain standard and expect them to adhere to it. Firing those who would do the right thing for the right reasons for the benefit of the members and the community reflects poorly on the board members as well as the management team for allowing such actions to occur. The apparent lack of due process which should have occurred according to the RCSC documentation is extremely telling of what the board feels it can do and not be held accountable. The board and management team must feel they are omnipotent and above scrutiny. Here is hoping for a quorum at the October meeting, as well as some swift decisions and actions by the members to deter any further detrimental actions by the GM or the current board. It may well be advised to have the ACC advised of what appears to be happening in our community, so as to stay abreast of possible changes within the corporate structure and assess the wholesale changes made to the original documents put together by those who saw Sun City for what it is and should be. An organization put together for the social well being of its members, not merely a corporation.
  10. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    Now i know i am twisted beyond repair. Just spent the last 45 minutes reading Sun City West's documents. Interesting to see the differences. Around 2000 they agreed to fall under Title 33 which mandated a more open style of governance. In essence, they cannot do business behind closed doors, other than in executive session. The RCSC battled with ARS to maintain their position under Title 10, which is far more loose in how they are run.

    While the RCSC claims they do everything in the open, we now know (from the two fired board members) what we have long suspected, small pockets of selected board members work behind the scenes to make decisions. That would land them in one heap of trouble in Sun City West. Title 33 would hold them accountable for those kinds of violations of the statutes. That is in fact why they went to court from having to fall under Title 33.

    Also interesting to note, the 9 member board in Sun City West is made up of 7 women and 2 men. One of the men is up for a recall vote based on a petition filed by a 1000 members or more in good standing. Their documents are a little easier to read and clearly the member/owners (sorry, not card-holders) have far more say than we have in Sun City. When we elected a majority of women to sit on our board, i was convinced it would become a more tolerant and open process. Hardly the case was it?
  11. FYI

    FYI Active Member

    I guess the woman are being influenced by the blowhard retread men? You know what they say about losing Freedom...once it's lost its never to be found again, and I'm afraid that's what happened to our memberships rights. I doubt we will ever regain our authority back again without some sort of major pushback, and I hope this McAdam issue has awken the sleeping giant. I hope she pushes the issue and I believe she has many residents willing to support her.
    If the board is allowed to continue to get away with these sort of tactics it will only continue to get worse. And who knows what the next shoe to fall will be?
    Poison_Ivy likes this.
  12. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    I could speculate regarding how and why this has gotten so sideways, but what's the point? They are where they are and they will do exactly what they have been doing until the community says enough is enough. They've been insulated over the years by the gm who rewrote documents to keep their actions from ever being held accountable. In turn, the gm then becomes protected as well and the circle grows smaller as everyone tightens ranks and roll merrily along pretending everything is okay.

    Worse yet, what is the message to those who are free thinkers, who have knowledge and aren't necessarily willing to sit in the corner and "keep their mouth shut," (actual quotes for a reason). Anyone interested in running for the board and has paid any attention during 2020 and 2021 sees two board members fired because what? They didn't agree? They dug into every aspect of being on the board? If and when they found stuff that was suspect, they spoke out and were fired for asking questions of other board members?

    Let me think about that for a few minutes...should i pick up a packet and run...get a hundred signatures and put myself in harms way? Chilling message from the existing board isn't it. Or worse about those who went through the time, effort and expense to collect signatures, get on the ballot and then not get enough votes because you weren't on the list circulated to a couple of large clubs that decide who gets elected. I fully understand winning and losing, but it seems to me those who came up short should be the first consideration when positions come open; not some retread who has already served six or more years.

    In the early years terms were limited to 1 year. Then it went to 2 years, finally increasing to 3. As time went on, board members added a second 3 year term. The whole point over the years was to get more members involved in the governance of the days the goal apparently is less.
    Poison_Ivy likes this.
  13. FYI

    FYI Active Member

    Maybe we need to organize some sort of independent citizen watchdog organization to keep tabs on the goings-on with things and make sure we hold both the board and the RCSC to task as well as keeping the members informed. We could probably get articles published in the Independent and/or force that new Sun City News video magazine, Sun City In Focus to report on the members concerns?
    Poison_Ivy likes this.
  14. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    Interesting to note, that is exactly what happened in the late 90's and early 2000's in Sun City West. I think the acronym was SCWOG and they reached a settlement rather than face an expensive court case. We on the other hand had an ugly near on 20 year battle that ended in litigation and was thrown out with Title 10 remaining our status. I always argued we could function under Title 33, we would just have to change the way we did business; you know, open and transparent. I refused to side with the ARS lawsuit because the end game there was an expensive settlement that we (the owners) would all end up paying.

    The Independent only has so much reach and readership and Sun City Focus is really a project by and for the board. My understanding is that's not the way it was intended, but after watching one episode that featured a board member and the board president, it looks like that is what is has become. Hopefully i am wrong; but...

    One we get to the middle of August and once Karen is back and has decided what she wants to do, we can work towards growing attendance at the September meetings. There's obviously going to be lots of questions that need and deserve answers.
  15. FYI

    FYI Active Member

    So if I'm reading you right, if they don't reinstate Karen if that's what SHE wants, then some sort of resident watchdog group may be a possibility?

    As long as the board keeps bringing back retreads, their mentality isn't likely to change!
  16. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    Two things; they won't reinstate her, at least not without her taking some sort of legal action. The second is a little more tricky; starting a watchdog group i suspect would be easier following the September meeting following the turnout by members and how they react and respond. My guess is if the crowd is vocal they may well try and placate the pickleball players down south by more than telling them to just go play at Marinette.
  17. FYI

    FYI Active Member

    Well...I for one hope she pursues some sort of action.

    With now knowing that this is exactly the same tactic they used on Barbara Brehm I think this issue is much bigger than just Karen's termination. Our so-called community of self-governance is now being dictated to us by a rogue group of nine!
  18. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    Awesome gang, bounded over 5000 reads last night. Still lots of interest and members following the thread.

    We kind of blew over the piece i posted with stats for other age restricted communities around us. The argument Karen was making shouldn't be lost because the claim she was "unwilling and incapable" all stemmed from the position she was taking regarding removing the 7 pickleball courts at Mountainview. She wanted answers as to when they could expect to see courts return south of Grand Ave.

    Because pickleball is the fastest growing sport in age restricted communities and because the likelihood that once they were closed, they could be down for years and years, she felt it important to have more clarity as to the question she kept asking; "when?" Not only did they refuse to answer, they rudely tried to shut her up. Apparently that was the treatment she got behind closed doors as well.

    With that out of the way, let's compare the 5 top-rated communities compared to Sun City. It's an easy transition using the following formula:
    1). Sun City: 27,000 homes, currently 27 pickleball courts.
    If each of the other communities listed had an equal number of courts per thousand homes here is what would happen:
    2). Sun City Grand: 9,802 homes, currently 22 courts...take away 12 of them.
    3). Pebblecreek: 6,200 homes, 20 courts...take away 14 of them.
    4). Sun City West: 16,900 homes, 27 courts...take away 10 of them.
    5). Robson Ranch: 4,600 homes, 16 courts...take away 11 of them.
    6). Sun City Anthem at Merrill Ranch: 3,800 homes, 8 courts...take away 4 of them.

    Basically what i am saying is for each of the 5 communities listed on 55Places as more pickleball friendly they would need to take away the number of courts to be on par on a per-capita basis. Sadly, this is before we lose the 7 courts at Mountainview. From a competitive perspective, Sun City falls far behind those communities for potential buyers interested in pickleball. That was Karen's point they refused to listen to.
  19. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    Time for a bit of a history lesson, though this time frame not all that far back. We are looking at roughly 2004, clearly many of our readers weren't living here and have no idea. It was a time frame before the existing gm had been hired, a time when the RCSC board of directors actually represented the community as a whole and didn't swear allegiance to the corporation as the reason for them serving. How refreshing is that?

    The preservation and improvement fund (PIF) had been passed in 1999 and the community finally found themselves collecting reserves to address sorely needed improvements. The Bell Center got a major upgrade in the pool and fitness area. It caused an uproar as the aging users of Bell faced a year-long wait where it would be closed. The board worked hard to create buy-in and acceptance. There were critics for sure but there was a significant effort to help members understand how good it would/would be. It turned out better than most expected.

    Once done, the focus turned to south of Grand Avenue. None of the three centers offered much in the way of the changing expectations regarding fitness and workout areas. Fairway (originally Town Hall) opened in 1961 and was truly a dump (sorry, perhaps aging is more genteel). The board realized phase 1 needed a major facelift and Fairway was the ideal place to do it. The footprint was too small for the space they needed so they worked around it with a second story and elevators to help those unable to climb the steep steps.

    The challenge was there was a boatload of clubs and events there and displacing them would cause a massive disruption in services provided to the community. Worse yet, there wasn't enough money in the PIF to get it all done at once. The RCSC will not go into debt, because if they do they need to vote the membership if it is more than 750K. They knew it would need to be done in stages and as funds were available to pay it as they went along.

    To address the concerns of the community and primarily the clubs at Fairway, the board of directors met with every club well in advance of any work ever starting. It was the responsible way to act in concert with those impacted. So we are clear, they knew it would be as much as 4 to 5 years and they didn't pull any punches when they met with clubs housed there. They did however commit to replace every club, no matter how long it took. Again, the right way to deal with the membership (dare i say, owners?).

    Yes it was long and painful process. The first stage that opened housed the bulk of the clubs, though not all. Roughly a two year project. phase 1 where the clubs and library are opened and clubs could resume their activities. It took two more years to complete the fitness area, pool, walking track and lawn bowling greens but in the end, most felt it was well worth the wait.

    All-in-all it was an exercise in the right way to deal with these kinds of impactful projects in the community. Very few people like change, most hate when their daily routines are interrupted. Back in those days when the board was elected to serve the membership rather than the management, everything was handled differently, suffice to say, better. This post has gone on long enough. When i return we will break down how the Fairway project compares to the Mountainview fiasco (almost sounds like i have a bias).
  20. FYI

    FYI Active Member

    How did they swing the cost for all those solar panels or are they some sort of lease to own arrangement?

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