Mountainview...Awesome Plans, but...

Discussion in 'Sun City General Discussions' started by BPearson, Jun 10, 2020.

  1. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    There's always a but, isn't there. And in this case there is one massive big butt called Maricopa County.

    For those of you who missed the RCSC meeting yesterday, it is posted and you can watch it here.

    It was pretty well run and i would agree with Director Hoffer, the Ad Hoc committee report regarding Mountainview was exceptionally well done. It is a wish list well beyond anything i could have or would have imagined. Two pools, two story building complete with gym for basketball and volleyball and a rock climbing wall on the first floor and fitness area on the second level including a room for cycling. All state of the art.

    The theater proposal is all encompassing as well. Seating for 400 with lots of additional space for meeting and greeting and backroom dressing rooms and storage. Spectacular. The only downside was removing the two tennis courts for more pickleball, but a committee member explained tennis ball play there was down to nothing.

    You can read the full report here.

    The audience was enthralled by the well they should be. Literally something for every one. I truly hope they can pull it off, it would make Sun City an even better place to retire to. Unfortunately, the reality of that big old butt is this: The amount of additional space they want to add is impacted by the county codes regarding maximum occupancy numbers which then dictates the required number of parking spaces they will require.

    All of our rec centers were built before these codes were put in place; hence they were grandfathered. A new center like the one proposed at Mountainview will be obligated to comply. I don't recall, someone can look it up but i think it is something just under two people per car per occupancy. As i recall when they built Fairway that was a huge issue and part of the solution was to use the median.

    There is currently parking front and back, but with all of the added amenities, they will be eating up parking space and increasing the square footage by at least double what they have now. You can do the math, but i see no way humanly possible to get it all on the footprint available.

    Like i say, hope i am wrong. There's nothing worse than getting people all excited by a great report that has zero chance to become reality. I would hope the staff helped the committee and board members understand how challenging this proposal will be to live up to.
  2. aggie

    aggie Well-Known Member

    I thought the same thing Bill. In addition to the parking space requirement, there will be the dreaded water retention areas which was a factor when Marinette was designed. This is all just a dream list and so much will have to be edited to accommodate the County's codes. Perhaps they'll have to design a 2-level parking structure with water retention in the sub floor? Way into the future and it will be interesting to see how it all shakes out.

    I was disappointed to see the lack of support for moving up the softball field building upgrade. Piling the lighting into the figures put it over the top and could have been broken into phases much like Grand Avenue.
  3. Enquirer

    Enquirer New Member

    While everyone is so happy to see this plan, what is most glaring to me is what is absent from this plan.

    There is no mention of “green spaces”, and no mention of the availability of information technology, cyber space, video gaming, esports, etc.

    This just begins to skim the surface of what some recent owners have been requesting from the Board. It isn’t like there wasn’t a homeowner in the room that brought this to their attention during the ad hoc meetings, because there was one.

    There are members who have come before the Board for years asking for improvements in IT Infrastructure. Even the Long Range Planning Committee has sought improvements in the community's IT Infrastructure. Managements answer, we are working to increase the wifi bandwidth. They have been working on it for 2 years, and it’s no closer to reality. Like is like saying you are working on obscure piece, and maybe someday you will actually get to something signifigant.

    It took a pandemic to even get the RCSC to use a card skimmer. The BOD and RCSC Mgt, are so tied to protecting the past, they are about to lose the future.
    BPearson likes this.
  4. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    Damn you E; i've been trying to eradicate those months on the long range planning committee from my mind. We were asked to write a summation on the next generation home buyer, Gen X. It was really well done and we thought we were moving in the right direction. We suggested long before anything else be done, we should assess our technology shortcomings. An overall system review of our wants, needs and expectations. The proposal flew through the committee and committee chairs. Then the GM returned from her annual July month off and suddenly the proposal was batshit crazy. That was enough for me. Nothing had changed one iota since my time on the board.

    The simple reality is technology is outside her wheelhouse and apparently the easiest thing is to pretend it's all just fine. The fiasco on selling tickets online was only outstripped by the joke to increase our wifi to 100 megs. Funny, they are still trying to figure it out. The idea of camera's around our amenities was another forever project. Way better to install fencing and hire rent-a-guards to patrol during the pandemic closures eh? If it wasn't so tragic it would be funny.

    Sun City is a great place to live. An improved Mountainview will only make it better. The real question is: How good could we be had we implemented a cohesive and strategic long range plan...especially knowing from 2000 through 2040 we would have over 200 million dollars to invest wisely?
  5. IndependentCynic

    IndependentCynic Active Member

    hmmm -- maybe a multi level building needs a multi-level parking facility? There's no limit to what the PIF can fund, LOL.
  6. BP, you are correct regarding two people per car. Parking is one big issue as well as insurance concerns regarding the rock climbing and how long will it take before a one story wall is not enough.
    The cycling will probably be what I call this week’s flavor, spin cycles and these puppies are not cheap. Will these cycles require internet access and additional cost for the person yelling at you on the individual screens? How much time will the cycling club take up for club use? When this group first approached the Board during a work session a couple of years ago, their request for reserved time was outrageous. The cost of these cycles is not cheap and they wanted fifteen of them the last I knew.

    I still have have serious doubts about this performing arts center. While the Players do need a larger backstage, dressing rooms, etc., is this a waste of money? The Players perform maybe four to five productions a year with I believe about five to seven performance for each play. They have about two weeks or so of rehearsals which comes to a total use of about three and half months of use at best. Theater would be dark two months (July and August) and I would presume Sundial shows would relocate there. Would there be less seating for those shows which would require higher ticket costs. Then there was the brilliant comment from several people at a town hall a few years ago that the theater could be used as a venue for Sun Bowl rain outs. So shows that draw on average of about five thousand is going to be held in a venue that seats four hundred. Hopefully nothing but leprechauns show up for two to three a seat. Any left over time could be used for lectures, by whom? I imagine that I could pack the house with my lecture on what do NASCAR drivers jumpsuits and Medieval church stained glass windows have in common or maybe on the topic of how the Black Death made the world we live in today (it’s true). Just my view of this project.

    I also feel bad about the softball club apparently having to wait ten years for the improvements requested in 2016. Meanwhile the Car Club muscled, cajoled and sucked up to their golf buddies on the Board to have their $3 million (I project about $3.5 -$4 million for their Taj Mahal. Maybe if softball had a Moses complex like the Car club, the improvements would have taken place sooner.

    This is just my opinion and analysis and if I am incorrect on points raised, please let me know.
  7. SCR

    SCR Active Member

    Everyone is entitled to their opinion. For the most part I agree with you. Mountainview has been in conflict since day one. There are definitely hidden agendas at play here.

    The softball club has been pushed to the back of all discussions and considerations. Softball improvements have been table far too long. I am not a softball player but I support their efforts to modernize their facilities.

    Again, I will say for at least the 5th rime, the BOD has ceased to have any function in Sun City. They are all puppets to the GM. None of them have a any intelligent contribution to the governing of Sun City. They are echoes of the GM.

    Also, again I say that without independent data collection and presentation, Sun City is destined to be just another city in Maricopa county without
    sufficient representation from our politicians. Lesko - total loser - never did anything for Sun City. McSally - nothing more rthan an echo for trump.
  8. suncityjack

    suncityjack Member

    Wonder if because of Covid-19 they will reconsider the fixed theatre seating plan and revert back to something like they have now, more of a multiuse style allowing for more spacing and better cleaning? I've always thought the present location would be perfect for dinner theatre and was surprised nothing like that was offered. At my university we had more than one style available since different productions have different requirements. Personally, I hate the idea of destroying a classic multiuse room and wish they could build atop it, around it, whatever....
  9. CMartinez

    CMartinez Active Member

    I agree completely with your statements and analogies. Up until such time we can get a new GM who truly understands how a BOD and GM relationship should work, it won't. It will remain a useless vacuum in favor of the GM, and the BOD mere puppets to do her dirty work. What a crying shame.

    Improving Mountanview to be a great site for sports and entertainment is a must have. I have been keeping my eyes open on the Healthcare Trust to see if they ever put the Lakes Club back up as a great site for a theater and member facility. Who knows, with all the construction going on, a new school may be in the works as well.
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2020
  10. suncityjack

    suncityjack Member

    Continue to keep watching for the Lakeview possibility--still the best location for a hub to be proud of because of the lake view and central location and bus route.
  11. aggie

    aggie Well-Known Member

    I read in today's paper that a contractor has been chosen for the Mountainview construction. I have re-read the submission by the ad hoc committee on the RCSC website, but has there ever been a release of the actual plans submitted to the contractor? It seems like such a long time ago. Are we to assume that everything recommended by the committee has been approved and part of the plan submitted to the contractor? It will be interesting what Maricopa County comes back with in regard to parking & water retention areas.
  12. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    Interesting aggie. Was it in the Independent? There initial recommendations were pretty much everything for everybody.Not sure how they accomplish that so it will be curious to see how this moves forward.
  13. aggie

    aggie Well-Known Member

    Yes, we get the Independent on Monday afternoons. The article is a small blurb starting on the lower left of the 4th page.
  14. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    Not much meat on the bone there. Thanks for pointing it out aggie. It will be fascinating to see how much this gets pared back. Seen this game played before; give everyone everything and let the county take the blame for doing what is allowable. It's as if they have no idea about the stuff we talked about above.
  15. Enquirer

    Enquirer New Member

    According to the Independent, dated April 14, 2021, page 4, lower left of the “In Brief” column, the Architect-Engineer (A/E) firm for the Mountain View center has been hired.

    I, for one, will be looking for the scheduled planning meetings with theA/E firm . You remember, the meetings the BOD and RCSC management said members would have input on the project.

    BTW, I note that the selected A/E firm is CCBGA Architects. I am shocked and surprised, NOT.

    With few exceptions (mostly involved golf course, where CCBGA was not, but still called in to consult), CCBGA Architects has been the RCSC’s A/E of choice for over 10 yes.

    History tells us that RCSC management will tell us that this “contractor” brings “intrinsic qualities” that outweigh competition and costs, and that they are familiar with how Sun City operates.

    When only one “contractor” is repetitively selected, how are other “contractors” to gain these “intrinsic qualities”?

    BTW wasn’t Director Collin’s campaign platform that he was going to “fix” the RCSC bidding system?
  16. Enquirer

    Enquirer New Member

    If you watch the BOD video, the same scheme is playing out with the Security system contract.

    RCSC management asserted a need to use the current contractor who put in the security system at the Grand Ave facility, to be the contractor to put in any new security at any facility in the future.

    When asked about other larger, more adept companies, management’s throw off response was, “they can bid too if they want to”.

    Don’t be surprised if those “intrinsic factor” don’t result in selection of the contractor of choice.
  17. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    One would hope we (the RCSC) aggressively seek multiple bidders. Using the same old same old hasn't always been the best practice. As we change leadership, hopefully we will break from past practice and become both more open and more engaging. We'll see eh?
  18. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    Opened the email from the RCSC with the plans for Mountainview. Loved the look, loved all the additions, loved they kept lawn bowling and mini-golf. Not sure what the deal is with tennis, thought that was going away and i hear the pickleball players are already moaning. All good except as i looked at the plans i didn't see any additional parking and in fact, perhaps they lost some. I hope this isn't one of those here it is but dang the county won't let us do it. We'll see.
  19. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    Curious...did anyone else look at the plans?
  20. aggie

    aggie Well-Known Member

    Yup, saw the plans. It was rather confusing with so many different drawings that didn't really show me an overall concept or layout on the actual property. It did seem like a lot of building on a small footprint and having a 2nd story does help a bit. Parking for performances will definitely be a problem. I realize it's very preliminary but I will always be convinced that building the multi-use performing arts center should be at the southeast corner of the Bell Center parking lot. Guess it makes too much sense.

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