Inquiring minds...

Discussion in 'Sun City General Discussions' started by BPearson, Jan 5, 2017.

  1. suncityjack

    suncityjack Active Member

    IndependentCynic said "According to what I've heard, Nextdoor can't scale to include all of Sun City so it may not be a useful alternative, either," but we're not sure about their capabilities. All I know is from all I've read, it is growing and attracting lots of attention nation-wide, so it might be the way to go IF they are willing to accommodate our request re: the boundaries. They adjust and change boundaries, such as some Desert Harbor folks of Sun City were recently reassigned to a Sun City neighborhood, and my request to have more of the Sun City neighborhoods added to my "surrounding neighborhoods" was approved, so I remain optimistic about the possibility of us getting all of Sun City to count as our surrounding neighborhoods. They need to understand that working with a city, esp. an unincorporated city might require some different strategies--just makes sense to me that if they are interested in building up neighborliness, it is crucial that planned developments are able to easily communicate to those within their developments....
    Of course we'd still have the issue of loss of info if it folds like Newszap, but maybe that is also something that could be discussed with them--stuff sent to a cloud, maybe with a fee if necessary to ensure it won't be lost.
    But then there's still the ads to deal with--maybe Nextdoor would be able to develop a Premium Membership....
    I guess I'm conflicted too about whether it's worth developing a separate discussion board, so let's keep talking!
     
  2. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    Thanks gang, now i'm even more confused. Kidding, I'd be willing to spring for a couple of hundred to build something for just Sun City. The tech side of it is a bit more challenging.
     
  3. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    Alive and well, J just had a knee replacement.
     
  4. IndependentCynic

    IndependentCynic Active Member

    In thinking a little more about creating a new site to replace this forum, it seems to me that it would be a lot of work and expense for minimal payback if the only goal is to reduce/avoid spam and trolls. If the goal is to expand the features of the TOSC forum, then that's a different story.

    As Cynthia alluded, reducing forum spam is, generically, pretty rote these days since all the popular forum software packages are quite mature – eg, vBulletin has been around for over 15-years. Appropriately configured, most forum packages can be configured to thwart a high percentage of spam (particularly robot spam) without undue burden to legitimate forum users. (Cynthia's suggestion to require a minimum post count before allowing posting active links is one such configuration option.) But all packages fail to stop a determined individual who is intent on spamming/trolling – so eventually an Admin must get involved for these cases.

    Creating your own site can be fun... playing with new features, etc. Being a site Admin, not so much sometimes. The Admin role often must deal with member conflicts, the dog work of tracking down spammer/troll emails and IPs, etc and sometimes banning people. The bigger the forum the more of the latter is required. And all too often websites fall into disarray when the original site creators move on (and in SC we all are closer to that than we'd like :02.47-tranquillity: )

    Today, the web presence for our SC community of ~40K residents is...
    1. an RCSC website,
    2. a SCHOA website,
    3. a plethora of websites and Facebook groups run independently by RCSC-sanctioned clubs,
    4. a number of ad-hoc sites (eg, SC CAN), and
    5. a number of Nextdoor community sites.

    None of these are frequented by the entire community – and, it's not difficult to find SC residents who have never visited ANY of these websites.

    Granted, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. But IMO, we might be better served by an integrated SC Community Website – one portal for all, less duplication, etc. Sadly, I fear it would be difficult to merge it all under one roof – there would likely be nearly insurmountable turf wars, partisan bickering, security fears, funding issues, etc...
     
  5. Cynthia

    Cynthia Well-Known Member

    If it does become necessary, if TOSC folds, it might be best to go to a free wordpress with a free theme. All that's really needed to replace TOSC, the way we have been using it, is a simple communication site. Free wordpress sites will stay running and free forever, unlike us. The downside is typing in the wordpress word i.e. name.wordpress.com

    If all hell broke loose and spammers or idiots forced abandonement of conversation, the good history would still be searchable. And almost anyone can easily learn to manage small changes in a wordpress template.

    Yes it would be great if SC started one, but as IC said its a fairly small group that uses it so at this point in history it's doubtful they will create another one or combine all into one we can use and comment on.
     
  6. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    Again, thanks for all the thoughts. I used wordpress on the backside blog i did while at the museum. The drawback was i had to manually accept comments., which isn't all that bad when the comments are limited. Ideally we would build a site where posters built an identity where comments would be posted for those who were flagged for immediate posting.

    I agree with IC, the best site would be one where it was community driven and filled all the spaces with the orgs making up the community. It will never happen as these orgs are terrified of interactive communication. It's all about loss of control.

    Looking back over my work history and things i have done here, i see an opportunity to build an online community presence. We always toyed with the idea of a site called the commons where the community could gather online. People could post videos of activities, we could promote events and share concerns. One of the backdrops would be housing, another history, the options are almost endless.

    There's way more work than i want, but if there was enough interest it might be worth some time, energy and putting up a limited budget. The Sun City story needs to be told, and not through the eyes of an organization but from a personal resident perspective.

    No sense of urgency, but clearly worth chewing the fat over eh?
     
  7. Cynthia

    Cynthia Well-Known Member

    You don’t need to accept each post manually in wordpress...that’s a feature choice. I’m not sure if they have one where you need x number of posts before you can post a link but that is needed.
     
  8. IndependentCynic

    IndependentCynic Active Member

    I always tend to pucker a little when I hear that word free. My phone apps are free... as long as I'm willing to put up with fewer features, ads, spying on my usage. In reality, nothing is really "free". I'm not against WP -- it's a great package and easy to use.

    That said, everything has pluses and minuses. WRT Wordpress, the WP software itself is public domain so it likely will be viable for a long time. Automattic, Inc. (company that owns wordpress.com) is a privately held company principally funded by venture capitalists. Typically VCs become ruthless when they aren't getting a return on their investment. Automattic employs over 600 so their monthly expenses are significant -- there must be an income stream somewhere. So, wordpress.com will morph into whatever it's investors want.

    My understanding is that the WP software is free and can be hosted on virtually all hosts. Hosting a site running the WP software is free in limited configurations on wordpress.com. I'm unaware of other free hosting sites, but there must be some that insert their ad-stream in exchange for "free".

    There are lots of social media vehicles -- blogs, facebook, twitter, etc. The "forums" approach seems best to me for multi-user/multi-topic discussions, particularly when topics persist over longer time periods. I would find this forum (TOSC) extremely frustrating to navigate if it were on Facebook or Twitter. There are forum software add-ons (WP calls them plugins) available for integration with the WP software, but my understanding is that wordpress.com charges a fee to host them. Perhaps that's changed recently?

    Exactly! Imagine the budget economies and usefulness that could be created for the community if resources were pooled between all the entities in SC.
     
  9. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    If only eh IC? It has driven me wild as i have volunteered at the various orgs and seen no interest in building a big picture site. It's just not going to happen with them, so for me the opportunity is is to do it without. My knowledge on the tech side is virtually nil, my skill set on the writing, history and making it happen are a better option. I'd love to partner with some of you who know how to make it work.
     
  10. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    Gotta tell ya IC, since the EPCOR meetings, i've grown to hate the phrase "economies of scale."
     
  11. Cynthia

    Cynthia Well-Known Member



    I have a few free wordpress sites. Not a lot of ads. More ads here on TOSC. Some free templates are limited. I haven’t set up a forum style on wordpress though so I’m not familiar with the limitations.*
     
  12. IndependentCynic

    IndependentCynic Active Member

    Yes, that's certainly true -- they have little interest in making SC what I would consider "more viable and interesting". And yes, it gets tiresome pushing on the rope. I see a pervasive attitude in SC that any criticism and/or suggestion for change is bad or will cost money. Couple that with the many residents who obsess that someone might blame them for something, so they do nothing, and it's hard to get critical mass for change.

    I get that some residents don't get involved because they just want to be retired and relax and enjoy life. And I get that some believe they are at a resort, paying the RCSC to to run the community and provide them amenities. Neither of these represent a community attitude nor the "City of Volunteers" culture SC once had. It was that messiness of residents being involved, compromising and ultimately taking action for the good of all that made SC the community it used to be.

    BP, WRT creating a "Commons" site, I still work part-time so my time would pretty be limited, but I'll be glad to assist where I can.
     
  13. IndependentCynic

    IndependentCynic Active Member

    Ads are likely what funds the TOSC site's operation... ads can create a lot of revenue on busy sites. Ad revenue is what made Google and Facebook the rich behemoths they are today.
     
  14. Cynthia

    Cynthia Well-Known Member

    Not enough people on this site to create a lot of revenue. Hence the reason they don't care much about the spam issue and may not keep this site going.
     
  15. BruceW

    BruceW Active Member

  16. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    Again, i appreciate the comments from all of you have a better handle on how this works. While i have lots of experience posting and doing some admin, just brain dead on the mechanics. Some days i toy with taking classes to just have the basics. Some day.

    Today i had cause to talk to some folks about creating a site free from any organizational ties. The more i/we talk, the better i see the value of that kind of freedom. Plus we could build something that is both more functional and practical. On top of that discussion, spent some time with my new favorite realtor today and we had an interesting chat.

    In my previous life we built a site that was pure resource, no sales job. Most people didn't get it, but i found it to be awesome to just be a resource for people who needed information. The one thing i know from the TOSC posters is those who ended up buying here had a better understanding of the community than some folks who had lived here for years. IMHO, the more we can reach people before they buy, the better the will function once they do get here.

    The more i look at it, the more i like the idea.
     
  17. IndependentCynic

    IndependentCynic Active Member

    Stats available on the web indicate TOSC averages 80+ unique visitors a day, so even with ads it would have trouble supporting itself. Some of the owner's other sites likely support TOSC -- eg here.

    FWIW, every post I've reported as spam has disappeared, so someone is paying attention. A quick check of the Memberlist indicates 5-members have a rank of "Administrator" -- they probably have admin privileges as well.

    The biggest challenges I see with TOSC are
    1. hardly anyone in SC knows the site exists.
    2. Of its 1000 members, only 27 have more than 50 posts although 4 have over 1000 posts -- so the conversation is relatively colloquial.

     
  18. Cynthia

    Cynthia Well-Known Member

    They might be good but I could not find any reviews on them except from them. I clicked around a few of the forums but it's not easy to detect any issues. I searched on spam discussions and there were some complaints about items going to spam when they shouldn't but those complaints were years old. They do have a CAPTCHA feature. I didn't spend much time looking, just a few minutes.

    Hard to say about this one vs free wordpress vs any another except this looks easy to set up. The benefit of a WP site is it can be moved it to a paid site and even then back to free with not much work if that is ever needed/wanted in the future. I've done that before and it was easy. I'm not pushing WP I just wonder about a site few people know about, although they are forum only so it would seem they are better at it. I say would seem because the past forums from BB that were so popular were a mess to navigate. They might have improved over the years.

    It's not a standalone forum like TOSC. You sill have to type in name.createaforum.com. Meh. When a name is choose it should have SunCityAz in it or people will never find it.
     
  19. Cynthia

    Cynthia Well-Known Member

    Just looked around the blog on createaforum and you can rebrand to use a custom name that doesn't include createaforum in the title but that costs $20 a month

    They say some words are censored (unless you pay) but its not clear about what that is.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2017
  20. SCR

    SCR Active Member

    I’ve followed this thread with some interest and curiosity.

    What I’ve gleaned is that folks are upset over the spam postings, they don’t think TOSC provides information about the community, and it’s not specific enough about Sun City and the goings on there.

    SPAM/TROLLS/ADS
    Spam will always be an issue with any site on the internet. Even with 5 Administrators, controlling spam, trolls, junk, and ads is a daunting task and requires a lot of one’s time. Creating a new site will not resolve those issues.

    COMMUNITY ISSUES
    To my knowledge, there is no reason one cannot create a topic specific to an issue in Sun City. If you have an issue that you think the community should know about – create a topic. There have been community specific topics, but they get little attention from the community and most often they drift off topic – just a handful of consistent posters. If you look through the forum and sub forums you will notice that most of the sub forums have very little activity. That said, there is nothing from preventing someone from requesting that the administrators add a new sub forum such as “Sun City History”, SCHOA mission and discussion, Sun City CAN, and any other sub forum you would like to see. The problem is in directing people to TOSC and all the sub forums that are there.

    TOSC is a community forum and I’ve seen topics on many different subjects. The biggest issue with TOSC is that very few people know it exists. If you look around the TOSC site you will notice that the GENERRAL DISCUSSION forum is by far the most active of all the different sub forums there are. And in that forum you see the same folks posting. I haven’t seen a new member since I’ve joined. I may have missed them, but TOSC does not seem to attract new members.

    If you cannot get new members to post to TOSC how can you expect to get folks to sign in to a new forum exclusive to SUN CITY? Facebook to me is not the place to hold discussions regarding Sun City. As has been stated in previous posts it is a social media site used primarily to show one’s self off. It is not a discussion forum. How do you get the masses in Sun City to participate in discussion forums of any type if they do not know they exist? I personally prefer the TOSC forum over any social media site. If I want to be social I go out with my friends and relatives in a face to face environment. For distant friends and relatives I use email and Skype. I don’t have the time or interest in checking my phone every time someone posts on Facebook, or tweets or snapchats. My phone is just that a phone – it makes and receives calls.

    In short, a new forum site will not attract new members if you can’t advertise that site and generate interest in that site. Even if you do create a new site, that would be the third Sun City specific site to come in to existence.
     

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