God Lord; Now What?

The reasoning, I’m sure, is that the golf maintenance building ate falling down, and thus, create an unsafe condition for RCSC employees, and golfers.

Is the Softball building about to fall?

If so, all of these structures need immediate improvement, because they are in violation of OSHA safety standards.

So tell me, how did the people who have been managing this community for more than a decade, allow this situation to occur?

 

Yes, the RCSC has done a pretty thorough job of lock down. And a half dozen of us bitching here can't create enough volume to change things. I've lived in SC for 20-yesrs, give or take, and during that time have heard a ton of bitching by probably hundreds of club members (and even golfers, but as long as the golfers get what they want it's unlikely they'll bite the hand that feeds them). I honestly don't know the true magnitude, however -- but I'd assume it's significant since it seems unlikely I only meet malcontents.

The opposition needs a couple dedicated leaders. That's not me -- I've hated them since they disenfranchised us by changing the quorum. Anger and leadership don't work well together. But I do wish I had kept copies of all the prior versions of the AI, BLs, and BPs... that evolution (at least in my mind) illustrates without question that the BOD has completely strayed from its founding principals -- that exposure could surprise many members. might shock those who drank the koolaid and have been in RCSC la la land since they got here; thinking they own the RCSC (they don't), believing what the RCSC says without question.

Since the RCSC wants to play Corporation, we should play customer. We need to loudly publicize real and perceived mistakes. Making a big fuss over many little things can create doubt and get people to pay attention. EG, charging guests for the lake walk... that could have been quite a snowball of criticism if blown out of proportion -- expanded to charging relatives, grandkids, etc.

Historically the RCSC hasn't been honest, nor fair, in many of it's dealings with the clubs and the membership -- perhaps it's time to stop being civil and return the favor. More people are on social media than you think -- flood it and print media with negativity about the RCSC (not SC) -- letters to the Independent, posts on facebook, twitter, nextdoor. Sure, it's already been done -- but not in a sustained organized way. Want even more attention? Get some second amendment activists to stand on the sidewalk, impede access entering the parking lot, carrying AKs and long barrels, perhaps some anti-RCSC signs/chanting about things most members would agree with. (No guns on RCSC, but aren't sidewalks ok? Pedestrians have the right of way, but walking across the entrance into the parking lot is legal no matter how slowly you walk.) Historically, Civil disobedience has not been restricted to protests over laws and public policies, but has also been employed against the practices of private institutions such as corporations and universities. The RCSC can't, in practicality, suspend hundreds of protesters since they would have difficulty identifying them, but they could easily make a few examples of better known individuals. In the end I suspect the Sheriff's office would soon tire of being called if it happened regularly, which should be the goal.

 

Jim Wellman I say no more dicktator

 

Lot's to digest here gang. You make me smile IC because i might be one of a handful of SC residents who used Rules For Radicals and The Art of War on a regular basis in my work life. When i retired, i vowed to step away from fighting the good fight and try and enjoy life. Couldn't agree more SW; Wellman says it all.

I am curious Enquirer: How do you feel about allocating "golf maintenance buildings" under the facilities portion of PIF rather than golf? While most fail to understand the nuance, it bloats the facilities expenditures and makes the golf expenditures look smaller than it really is. Lakes East/West is a dump and will take way more than what they are saying cost-wise. I suspect the Grand Ave project will come in much higher as well. But, the biggest problem over the past near on 15 years has been the helter-skelter manner of how to spend PIF. There's never been a master plan with a long term strategy. Just seems to me to be short-sighted and leaving the grand scheme in the GM's hands.

There will be no revolt, people moving here have found it way easier to be oblivious to how we are run and simply focusing on their particular needs, usually at the club level. It was never that way the first 4o years. IC is dead on right, the changes in community documents have changed the dynamic and put all of the power in the hands of the GM and a compliant board. Think not? Ask who wrote virtually every one of the changes.

 

The queen thinks if you don't know the details and her reasons you can't question her decisions.

 

Barring some unforeseen event, I suspect you're right, at least in the short term. Stressful times will occur when water for golf becomes acute enough to have to finally address having too many courses. By then most of us will be gone, and so will the current GM. Meanwhile, if you don't like it you have to move. That's rebellion too, I guess, but the noise generated is so much less than a gunshot that it goes unnoticed.

 

This is not such a problem because under the current regime OSHA has pretty much ceased to function.

 

Oh, where do I begin .. .

Isn’t golf supposed to be self-sustaining? Is it? How can we know when the course are not all open, and do we keep some closed to keep the appearance that it is self sustaining, even with the admission that golf numbers are down (pre pandemic).

If the maintenance buildings had been properly maintained, a repair/replace program in place, and self maintaining, then golf would be paying for these buldings.

The use of the PIF is clearly defined, and it isn’t to shore up financial lags, or poor planning.

And before anyone claims it, I am not anti-golf, but our investments need to carry themselves, have purpose, and be well defined.

Same with the PIF. All of this should be well spelled out in the Corporation’s Long Range Planning documents.


Cost overruns are an indicator of a lack of document clarity, or a failure to foresee requirements, or an inability in Project oversight. The Corporation has a purchase/contract office, have they been trained in these areas?

People can move if they are not happy, please don’t be surprised when they do. The BOD and RCSC are probably counting on it.

What we all should be concerned about is whether or not people want to come to this environment.

The people who would be coming are not going to use the same criteria, and methods, used by us, and they are not going to be swayed by the assessment fee chart that RCSC thinks is the end all, be all.

 

You are indeed an enigma wrapped inside a riddle E. Sounded like at first you were defending the golf building maintenance buildings being built and then your last post was anything but. I never care who people are, but try and get a grip on what they are saying. And, you are spot on; golf is supposed to be self-sustaining. When or where have you ever read or heard that from anyone on the board or management? And anyone who tells you that is how it works is just having fun with you. The only way we will ever know for sure is to do a forensic audit...don't hold your breath.

I always wondered where those documents were stating that. When i asked the gm, her answer was "not sure" I asked why and she smiled and said, "plausible deniability." Really? Out of sight, out of mind i guess is perfect. So, here's the deal: when the RCSC bought the golf courses (roughly 1978 for $10 and a cup of coffee), there came with them in the agreement the golf courses would never be subsidized with RCSC dues. It was in the agreement and i will post it on line one of these days. To my knowledge and unlike other community documents it has never been rewritten or changed. The actual cost to golf should yearly be the total costs of running the courses.

Turns out that is/was a tough pill to swallow. The more rounds drop, the higher the cost to play, the less golfers we have the next year. When the PIF was created, that gave the RCSC the cushion to fix the courses without having to bill the costs back. My frustration over golf course maintenance being billed back to facilities is it makes it look like we are investing in rec centers and not golf courses. Which is of course pure BS. To be clear, PIF monies is clearly defined in what and how it can be used. The simple reality is people pay virtually no attention.

We have had sizable overruns and numerous delays in projects. Just the past year at Bell we have seen three instances. No one is ever held accountable; no one. Just the way it is. Interesting, i drove by Sun Dial this morning. Looked good to see some cars out front and then it dawned on me, the meeting was today. Did anyone go? Was it contentious? Who got elected to the board? Sorry but i just can't bring myself to sit in the room and watch the show any longer.

 

Well BP, you wrote a lot to digest and respond to.
I will start with the Board Meeting since I was in attendance. The interim director appointed was surprisingly Ron Jesse. I thought he was done doing this for several reasons but obviously have been sorted out. Nice guy, safe choice because there is not much time left before the end of the year when the appointment ends.

The only time there was any meaningful discussion was concerning the long range plan to be adopted by the Board. The last time this happened was 2016. Dale Lehrer pointed out that projects appear or move up as the result of some sort of magic fairy dust (my words not hers). She actually said that it seems to be the result of “back room deals and not the result of quantified need.”That was followed by the party line of the living breathing document rap and can be changed at any time. Since the plan was resuscitated was four years ago I would say life support is closer to it. Dale and Sue tried to table the plan so there could be more discussion but shot down. If I remember correctly a motion passed approving plans for 2020 -2022 inclusive. Regarding weirdness on motions and plans, softball was given approval for a new building and lights which they have waited six years for but appears to be done 2026 according to the plan. However the Car Club Taj Mahal and archery range is slated for next year. Guess Sun City will have a passel of Mad Max Road Warriors in our mists. Pays to have a Board officer as a golfing buddy along with golfers on the Board.

The entertainment portion of the meeting were the three members who belong to the libertarian you can’t tell me what to do because I am special Faux News school of stupidity. Pop up some popcorn, grab a beer and watch learning impaired members rant about their rights as enumerated by President Hydroxy Clown and the AR 15 crowd. We even had a woman cite the Constitution saying all these precautions are unconstitutional. Obviously she has not studied this document in over forty years otherwise she would have noted these were legal under the general welfare clause in the Preamble. Don’t believe me, look it up.

As for cost overruns and delays, having spent over thirty in surety construction bonding, we had a saying that projects take twice as long and cost three times as much. That bondman humor. As for cost overruns, things happen such as specific mechanical, hvac, electrical, tile, coatings, etc. are not available or might not be compatibility with building code. Another instance, especially if old buildings such as the Oakmont project a few ago had numerous problems that were unknown to RCSC and the contractor such as wall studs that were a few inches too short and were not attached at the bottom frame and electrical work done over the years that would have confounded Rube Goldberg. If underground work is required, this is an area where you must rely on previous blueprints as to where water, gas and sewer lines are located, provided you can find the plans or that the plans from the county and/or utilities are accurate. Case in point, about thirty years ago when I lived in Chicago, a contractor had a job with the city to install new pilings in the Chicago River. Unbeknownst to the contractor there were tunnels under the river from the 19th and early 20th centuries for delivering coal to the downtown buildings. His plans didn’t show these tunnels nor did the city’s. In fact the city had trouble finding the original plans. There is more to the story but I believe you get the idea.

As for delays, there could be many reasons, deliveries of supplies, waiting for building inspectors (I understand that APS, EPCOR and especially Maricopa county work on a time that was before clocks). Another reason is that there are force majuer clauses in contracts. That mean a delay caused by an act of God, I.e., floods, hurricanes, tornadoes, pandemics (yes this is considered an Act of God). Again I believe you get the idea.

As for golf courses being self sustaining, it would probably be in the bylaws somewhere. I would look for it but I am currently binge watching Bosch and Goliath on Amazon, The Last Kingdom, Designated Survivor on Netflix and Bodyguard, Trial and Retribution on Acorn. I don’t believe in would be in the Articles of Incorporation.

I trust this gives you some clarification.

 

Thanks for the update Dave. I look forward to the video. Seriously, what's better than watching people make ass-clowns out of themselves. I am so sick of listening to people tell me this is nothing more than the "flu." 100,000 plus people have died in three months in this country; and that's with one serious lock down. If only the president had acted in January when he was told about this we would have had half the deaths and the economy wouldn't have been crushed. Thank god i wasn't there, tough to sit by silently and let people spew their political agenda. When you strip aside the facade, all you will find is a maga wearing hat-fool in love with his nonsense.

Ron Jesse is a good guy. The reality is it doesn't matter whose butt is in any of the chairs the board sits in. The GM runs the show and calls the shots. It was why i told the softball club not to let them shove you off to the long range planning committee. That is where ideas and requests go to die. If memory serves me, you were still on the board when Vance Coleman and a vocal group came in wanting a patio and building for the restaurant and cart storage at the Lakes courses. The board quickly quieted them with a commitment to appear on the long range plan...how's that working out for you all?

Dale and Sue must be getting it. You can raise all the logical questions and reasons to act more prudently, but in the end the minority position is meaningless. I know both of them have gotten pissy with my bluntness but eventually reality sets in and you come to understand where all control stems from. The GM has done a marvelous job in keeping yearly assessments low, but at what cost to the community? We've all but destroyed the "sense of community." The "ownership mentality" is gone, we are all now just card holders. The future with so much money dedicated to golf has left us behind the curve in so many other areas. And, we haven't even touched on the whole technology void we live in.

Let me be clear, the self-sustaining golf clause is not in the Articles of Incorporation. Not in the By-Laws. Not in the Rules and Regulations. It is in the agreement drafted when the RCSC took over the courses. Did you ever have it explained to you as a board member Dave? I didn't. Some people may think ignorance is bliss, but in the case of board members, it can be a financial killer. Both the Prudent Man Theory and the Fiduciary Obligations come to bare. Not knowing is not a safety net or protection, they work off of the expectation you should know.

There was a simple reason they couldn't shutter golf. It would have killed them when setting rates next year. I have watched as creative budgeting and cost allocations have been used in the past years. I have no sense of fighting the good fight to sort it all out. It is why i have stated numerous times the only way to assess where we should be is with a forensic audit. If there were games played, all would be laid bare. This year is/will be problematic. While everyone looks at rounds played, revenue is the real yardstick. Had they been closed for 2 or 3 months, the cost of golf in 2021 would have increased dramatically. It will be interesting to see the impact to the bottom line by years-end on golf.

Sadly we just keep traveling down a road far removed from how and why were built and more importantly...why we succeeded.

 

I play ball with the one gentleman (puke cough gag) Tumper all the way and probably has his penis tattooed with his heroes name on it.

 

I'm just starting to watch the RCSC meeting and can hardly wait for our local constitutional scholars share their thoughts.

 

You know when you are watching a horror movie and mentally tell the actor "Don't go down the basement stairs!!!!!!". I'm telling you "Don't watch the video unless you've doubled up on your blood pressure pills!!!"

I'd be so embarrassed if that was a friend or relative of mine spewing such selfishness & disregard for others. I didn't go to the meeting because I am not willing to risk my health to those type of people. I noticed they(the female/male couple) weren't wearing masks the whole time they were in the audience and didn't put one on when they left. Any follow-up by the RCSC? Probably not.

 

It wasn't as bad as i was expecting aggie. My biggest problem with the RCSC has been how they have handled the PIF and how projects are allocated. Dale was right, the whole structure was supposed to change and be based on need, not want. Criteria, data and statistics were all a part of developing a cohesive plan going forward. Just frustrating to see it's still the same old same old. Someday maybe eh?

On the other side of the coin, my hat is off to all them (management and board) during these trying times. There's no playbook for dealing with a pandemic (except the one Obama left trump and he threw it away). Ducey is a safe fallback, but the simple reality is almost the entire community is part of the at-risk population. Being safe rather than sorry is a no-brainer. They have the right (the RCSC) to set rules. They have an obligation to enforce them. If they fail to do that, the rules become meaningless. My only complaint is in how they have communicated. These are impossible times for everyone and a little empathy goes a long way. I know the political persuasion of several of them and kudos in leaving the politics out of this and just doing the right thing.

Maybe come fall (November) there will be a light at the end of the tunnel. Only a fool loves management by chaos.

 

My wife and I inquired at a store which supposedly requires "everyone" to wear a mask why there were people in there w/o masks. The manager said that they can't require a person wear a mask if the person claims they have a medical reason why they can't.

My guess is the the BOD/Management are of the persuasion that masks are for liberals, the only reason they are part of the Phase re-opening is because they want to use Ducey's guidelines as a front against liability. I agree you can't force someone to wear one, but AFAIK you can legally refuse access to someone not wearing one, particularly in a non-public setting (ie, corporate) such as the RCSC.

 

I am less concerned about the why and more impressed by the RCSC's efforts to comply IC. They did not look at it politically, but practically. Kudos for that. As i said in another thread, the leadership almost always sets the tone and the agenda.

Funny thing is when i retired i got as far away from politics as humanly possible. It was a way of life for me and i had had enough of trying to work with a barely functional system of governance. During the Obama years i stepped in a little because of all the vitriol from the far right. When trump ran i was aghast, i've never liked him as a human being, let alone as my president.

The only saving grace when he won were the two statements he made: He said he could and would become presidential and he would serve as president for all Americans and not just his hard core followers. Beyond that, just maybe he could bridge the partisan divide. It was a fools dream on my part. From the day he started it simply grew worse. His only real concern has been pandering and placating that 35% that would support him if he shot someone on 5th Ave. The "qualities" he built his business model on became his blueprint for governance.

He was a marketing genius and woeful businessman. He could portray and sell himself like no other. It's why so many rubes fell in line. Nope, not trying to insult any of his followers, he's that damned good in his pitch. For the majority of Americans, they watched in horror as each days childish behavior became worse than the next. He took the "norms" in our society and made a mockery of them. "Owning the libs" was his calling card and the far right loved it and the moderate right tried to pretend it wasn't that bad.

Leadership is never about what you say, it's about what you do. Outcomes matter, the impact on people's lives matter, the State of the Union matters. Now 5 months before the November election here is where we are: The rest of the world is laughing at us; the country is more divided than any time since the civil war; 100,000 plus people have died of COVID19 and lots more are coming; unemployment levels are comparable to the great depression; we are opening up the country and hoping it all just goes away because trump said it will; and there's that other problem, our city's are on fire and the streets are filled with protesters.

You can glibly say, it isn't trumps fault. But the reality is it is. Leadership has to be held accountable, no matter how much they blame someone/anyone else. It starts at the top. His failing to wear a mask might be the least of his sins (even though he claims to never having to ask God for forgiveness), but it is the most visible. It's the blatant disregard for his own experts because as we have heard too many times...he knows better than everyone else on virtually every topic. We are all being asked to pay the price for electing a man who is so far over his head it's pathetic.

The tragedy is, the price we are paying is beyond anyone's belief or comprehension.

 

If you say so -- you certainly have more knowledge of the management and directors thought processes than I do. But as an outsider (a member) looking in, it sure appears there was a concerted effort to use the state guidelines as a shield against legal and member pushback. Nothing wrong with that -- as long as there primary reason was a genuine concern for our health/protection?

 

I don't think there was any question Ducey was a convenient crutch, and still is. From my perspective i don't care how or why, the fact they are is all that matters to me. Their leadership is infinitely better than the donald's. Like is said earlier most of those screaming "freedom" are really angry that trump is where he is and are trying to help him out of the hole he dug himself.

And if we are going to be even more blunt, most of those wandering around with ar's 15's around their neck are part of his core group. Fanatical? Maybe, probably. They all have been lovers of the whole American Exceptionalism (another name for white exceptionalism), white nationalism and white supremacy...you know those that are "fine people." The move forward with that concept of white power during the past three and a half years is part of the reason we are where we are today.

What the hell ever happened to the concept of "all men are created equal?"

 

America was never really following that precept as we understand it. In their wisdom, to our Founding Fathers, that meant "all white males who own property" and I don't think we have drifted all that far from that meaning.