Discussion in 'Sun City General Discussions' started by BPearson, Apr 7, 2021.

  1. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    It was a long time in coming but this email yesterday was easily the best news is we have seen in a year now in Sun City. I will let this cut from the RCSC release speak for itself:
    "What exactly does “Getting Back to Normal” mean and why now?
    RCSC Management is recommending that the “Getting Back to Normal” date be set for May 17, 2021. This provides RCSC employees under 55 years of age sufficient time to get fully vaccinated after just having the opportunity to do so starting March 24, 2021."

    Thoughts anyone?
  2. IndependentCynic

    IndependentCynic Active Member

    I'm vaccinated, so I feel reasonably safe in the presence of the Covid variants commonly found circulation in the Phoenix area. Nonetheless, I'm still wary of the new variants popping up, seemingly every day, several of which are reported to be considerably more infectious and vaccine resistant. So regardless of what people who put politics, revenue, and social pressure above safety (ie, many governors, mayors, and even the RCSC ) decide, I still intend to wear a mask and socially distance until CDC scientists say we've reached the herd immunity tipping point and it's safe to return to normal. If others don't like me doing that it's their problem to deal with since I'm not affecting them by doing so.

    My concept of an "active lifestyle" is simply to keep busy, ie, not sit and vegetate -- and I have absolutely no problem doing that alone and/or distanced from others. I could be as happy playing a round of golf by myself as in a foursome. I like swimming laps in an empty pool, or laying by the pool and reading a good book uninterrupted by others. Except when I need a special machine for therapy reasons, I'm just as happy to exercise on my ancient NORDIC Track at home -- ie, who needs to go to the RCSC and wait in line for a machine. Thanks to our neighboring cities, I can put the dog in the car and we go to their park -- one with grass, trees, shade -- where we can walk the paths, throw Frisbee, etc. with little/no interference from others. Life is great.
  3. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    Damn IC, a brother from another mother. Having people around me seldom factors into how i judge my happiness level. Life is great and getting back to normal (for the vast majority) will make it even greater.

    I am more curious if the RCSC board will accelerate the May 17th date at the coming board meeting. That date is more than 5 weeks away and both Sun City West and Sun City Grand are further along in getting back to normal than we are. If you watched the last board meeting you saw at least a couple of the board members push the management team to open sooner than they were proposing. In fact, if you think back Chris proposed a May 1 date to open outdoor activities. This now appears to be all clubs (with approval by the clubs office) and events. It even
    1 sounds like we can once again use our punch cards rather than having to buy them online.

    In the end, each of us will make our own decisions on when we will feel comfortable to return to any given activities...and that is how it should be.
  4. Riggo

    Riggo Member

    Imagine, IC, if such an amenity (or 2 or 3) were within the confines of Sun City. I'd bet you'd be willing to trade in a golf course for one...especially one that isn't deed restricted. Wouldn't that make Sun City more competitive as this is the number one most sought after amenity for new retirees? They love to walk you know....especially with their dog. I'd be willing to bet BP could handle that CHANGE. Competition....I heard that once before....
  5. IndependentCynic

    IndependentCynic Active Member

    Oh, I have been advocating a trade for a long time -- long before this this forum existed. Back in the days when the new Fairway was being built, ARS was stirring the pot, and the RCSC was taking away member rights, a bunch of us agitated long and hard to convert a Golf Course to a park. It was discovered that when DW deeded Quail Run to the RCSC they forgot to bind it with the deed restriction requiring it remain a golf course. It was the RCSC that actually added the deed restriction several years later. Thus, the RCSC could likely be successful with a petition to the court to remove the restriction if they could get the bordering homeowners to agree. Of course, at the time, the golfers were adamantly against it and stirred up the homeowners with claims of plummeting property values, etc. Of course, at the same time they were trying to attract players from outside SC because residents were playing less and less golf.

    Someday the RCSC will need to shut down some courses -- it will have to happen because Arizona has a mindset to let builders keep building homes unfettered and as water become more scarce due to that and climate change the RCSC will be forced to stop watering a lot of grass so people have water to drink. I've played several true desert courses -- the ones with a little grass for a T, a spot where your drive should land, and a small green. The rest of the fairway and roughs were pure decomposed granite spotted with desert trees, cactus, creosote and brittle bush, etc. And rattlesnakes. Nice enough if the terrain is hilly/rocky (like parts of north Scottsdale, South Mountain, etc) but totally bland and uninviting where it's pretty flat/level (ie, like SC).

    It's not exactly nearby (1.5-hr drive east on 60), but take your dog (or just yourself if you don't have a dog) to Boyce Thompson Arboretum for a day's outing and you will return with a vision of how nice a desert plant park could be. [Youtube]
  6. Say What

    Say What Member

    I'm sure if you wanted to shut down one of the golf courses and make a beautiful Park out of it that could be done by paying $200,000 to each resident who has property on the golf course might as well do it now instead of later because it's going to cost a whole lot of money in litigation and if this is one way to do it now I say do it might have to bump up the figure for each resident but in the long run it'll be worth it. Then you can have the fight of who gets to use it and who doesn't because everybody is going to want a piece of land for their own purposes so about 50 to 75 million should solve this problem
  7. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    Got to head out to do a tour, but before i go, let me chime in. A golf course lot has between $25 to $50K up-charge on a similar home on the other side of the street. That would be an average, clearly there are locations on a course that would make it more desirable than others. The good news, or bad news is the RCSC will do nothing till they are forced to. Long before that happens the 3 private courses will be faced with figuring out how to get out from running a golf course and what value there is for the property owners bordering the course.

    That litigation will set the market value for compensation. Like i have said for years, whatever they are paid will need to include a compromise so there is green space adjacent to their property and space removed from the construction of housing units. While it is not what people living on those courses will want or like, it will be better than looking at fenced jungles.

    Private developers/golf course owners are in a wholly different boat than the RCSC. They own them as an investment, the RCSC owns them as a community amenity. The water issue will be the one that eventually drives their course of action. That is why we can never let the RCSC compromise on the initial deal...Sun City golf courses must remain self-sufficient. As the costs to maintain rise, the cost to play must rise along with it. At some point the reality of too many golf courses will be the driving factor.
  8. fixj

    fixj Active Member

    Rounds played in the US during 2020 were 13.9% greater than 2019. Equipment sales in the US had a 10% increase.
    Amazing numbers considering nearly all courses in the US experienced some period closure and restriction in 2020.
  9. IndependentCynic

    IndependentCynic Active Member

    Wow! Sorry if I hit a nerve. I am sensing that you're a very pro golf/maintain status quo type. You surely know that many residents in SC moved here for a reason other than golf and most of us came with divergent views, experiences, and expectations. We all pay the same assessment and, in theory, our voice's should carry proportionately the same weight in what ultimately happens moving forward as your voice does. While I don't live on a course, I know many who do -- they like the view, they enjoy the cooling effect when the sprinklers run in the heat, they get annoyed picking up golf balls and dealing with the occasional golfer walking in their back yard and they complain about lack of privacy. From my perspective that's not much different than what they'd experience if it were a park -- except there would be no golf balls.
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2021 at 6:32 PM
  10. IndependentCynic

    IndependentCynic Active Member

    Perhaps that illustrates that if you can't go to the gym, can't go to a movie, you can't go to a ballgame, you can't meet someone for lunch then you can at least meet for golf, even with it's restrictions (which were minor in most sunbelt states compared to the total shutdown of most other sports). I read that pickleball had a similar uptake. There certainly will be a carry over effect as leagues that were formed and habitual play continues. The question none of us knows the answer to is will it last? Or will it eventually revert to pre-pandemic participation? We'll see -- in a few years.
  11. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    Not to doubt your stat Fix but i went online to see how many courses had shut down. I knew that wasn't the case in AZ and this link from Golf Digest on state by state closure the end of April of 2020 says it wasn't anywhere else either. The numbers were way higher here as well in 2020 as golf was literally the only game in town. Imagine if for one year we told drinkers they couldn't buy anything but beer. Beer sales would be off the charts with record numbers. Like IC said, the test will be two and three years from now and if those golf numbers hold true/consistent. I would bet not, but i've been wrong before.
  12. Michigander

    Michigander New Member

    I'm back. Happy to see the idea from golf course to park staying alive. How about settling with back nine convertion to park. Golfers still can play 18 just by playing twice the front nine.
    I have supported a nearby nine hole golf course because they have struggled. They have had very few players except last year when governer opened golf courses after the first lockdown. It was the only game in town. I have not played for two years. For me golf is not important. When I go I walk fast and enjoy the scenery. This course is mini Augusta with lots of flowers around the tees. Around here three city courses and at least one private one have closed and now we see condos and businesses.
    Having some green space in SC would be worthwhile investment.
  13. fixj

    fixj Active Member

    Or perhaps SC members could use the existing, under used, centrally located park on the lake.
    Viewpoint Park.
  14. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    Don't even get me started on what should have happened to the park at Viewpoint lake and the adjacent Lakes Club. The setting could have been spectacular; including far improved walking trails.

    Nothing is going to change anytime soon with the 8 Sun City courses fix. Simple as that. The rubber will hit the road when the state forces courses to cut back on their watering as they will only allocate enough water for the fairways, tees and greens. Some amount of desert landscaping has been done on those courses, just not enough. I haven't played in a very long time, but i suspect there is more rough than there is desert landscaping. Years back, seems to me, the cost was around 2 million per course. My best guess is it would be way higher today.

    All of which shovels the problems on the 3 private courses. They don't have access to endless pots of money to make the change to desert landscaping. They will be forced to let the rough go dormant and die which will look and play like hell. They will be the first forced to act. It should be the tipping point. It's why i have discouraged friends from buying homes on the private courses. I've been wrong before, i might be wrong now, but there is so much money at stake, i doubt it.

    Finally fix, as a golfer, you do know the RCSC can't subsidize golf with rec fees (though we will never know unless they do a forensic audit)? They can spend PIF on the upgrades and they have shoveled boatloads of money into them. Are you of the mind they should spend another 10 to 20 million dollars for the conversion to desert landscaping? Before you answer, just recognize the percentage of golfers in the community is between 10% to 14 %. Also recognize, other improvements in the community have been put on hold or just ignored because of the investments in golf. That's what happens when you load the board with golfers and have a gm who has made it her priority.

    I've written it before: Sun City was created as a golf community and it always will be. The question is simply how much are we willing to pay to maintain the status quo as the game looses popularity?
  15. IndependentCynic

    IndependentCynic Active Member

    VP Park?? What -- a quarter of an acre? And no dogs allowed! For a population of 40,000 people and, I'd guess, 10,000 dogs.Wow!

    When I walk I usually take the dog as it makes us both feel better and kills two birds with one stone. We generally go a mile or so on SC sidewalks or the grass medians in Phase 1. We'd like to walk on the golf courses, but can't b/c fido isn't allowed. It matters little that other courses across the US have figured out how to share with walkers and pets, etc. -- but not in SC. SC golfers are, honestly, pretty snooty about sharing "their" courses. I don't for a minute buy the reasons given since they are all resolvable or just plain BS. Every resident has funded the SC courses, in one way or another (PIF, Assesment, etc) so there's no reason some of that money shouldn't be spent to allow the courses to be multi-function.

    By comparison, and not apples to apples in many ways -- Peoria, which borders SC on 3-sides, has roughly 30 small neighborhood parks, and three large parks that vary in size (52, 83, and 85 acres). Oh, and 6 dog parks. And the 16.8 mile New River Trail. All that for only 4-times SC's population. I for one think Duffyland and Viewpoint are totally embarrassing in comparison. If you look at newer Del Web communities around the country you'll see hiking and bicycle trails, nicer pools, and less golf. I assume, since they're selling, there are plenty of people wanting that lifestyle. That should embarrass us too!

    The RCSC should be ashamed they've let the community down with their head in the sand resistance to change! I have zero respect left for the RCSC -- and not one tiny shred of hope they will ever really listen to members in the future. The lies and effort the RCSC went through recently to avert open meetings, etc. should make it clear to anyone with open eyes we're little more than captive assessment payers. They take our input as a challenge to their authority -- which only shows how little they take their charter seriously -- to provide for the membership. So, as I've said before, I just just jump in the car with fido, drive a few miles and use our neighbor's parks which they graciously allow non-residents to use. It's refreshing to get away, if only for an hour or two.
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2021 at 11:48 AM

Share This Page