Over the years i have started more than a 1000 threads on TOSC. We've covered a myriad of topics, some of them more than once. Repetition never hurts because the one thing i know is we continually get new readers and finding older threads is a bugger unless you know what you are looking for. For example, i did a thread years back called Sun City housing options, you can find it here. Yesterday i met with some folks who drove up from Palm Creek. They have a pad they rent for the season for their motor home. As we were talking, they told me they enjoy the community and were going home to Michigan and putting their motor home up for sale. Their plan is to sell it and buy one of the permanent park models. I have had friends living in Paradise RV Park, just outside Sun City's walls and am familiar with that lifestyle. The Park models get a little claustrophobic, but when you can add decking and laundry and storage rooms, it becomes quite comfortable. They are usually reasonably priced. The killer is the lot fees. They can range from $6000 to $8000 per year. As i pointed out to the couple if you do the math, in 10 years you have invested on the low side $60,000 and on the high side $80,000. The worst part is those fees go up, while the value of the park model home stays pretty consistent. The good news is you can buy in cheaper than anything available in Sun City. The bad news is, there's a world of difference in what you a buying. For purposes of this thread, i am going to focus on attached housing. There are 27,000 plus rooftops in Sun City with about a 2 to 1 ratio of single family homes to attached living spaces. I've heard others use different stats, but for purposes of this article i will say roughly 18,000 single family homes with 9,000 variations of connected living styles. This thread is starting to get long so i will break it off here and take some time to dig out my old sales brochures. They did a great job of detailing the 6 different "modes of living." If i am going to do justice to the variations, i want to work from the model home information i have on hand. The good news is, the people i was chatting with yesterday stopped at George's at the Bell Rec Center for lunch. They had a good, inexpensive meal and chatted about what made the most sense for them. They decided they should at least look at Sun City properties before they buy anywhere else. No surprise there eh?
That is an excellent article E, especially for anyone who has not lived in attached units before. I know folks who bought in them and hate having to work with others regarding common areas. It's clearly not the same as owning a single family home where you can do almost anything you want. The more buyers understand, the better chance of adapting more readily. The condo associations in Sun City are covered under Title 33 and there are obligations based on size they have to follow. I've got an early morning meeting, so maybe after that we can take this thread down the path by breaking out each of the phases and the attached homes they developed in each of them. There are lots of variations on the names and styles. Meeker called them his six "modes" of living with the most obvious being the single family unit. The other 5 came in all shapes, sizes and locations. It always helps potential buyers get their heads around what is out there and what might work for them. Stay tuned.
Phase 1 has an interesting mix of attached homes scattered throughout that portion of Sun City. If you start near the museum, you will see single family homes and twin homes nearly side by side. If you cross 107th, behind what was the Kings Inn, now the Fry's store, you will also see Vacation Special units. It was where DEVCO opened the Play and Stay once the Kings Inn motor lodge became too small. The as you move further down the road, with the opening of Town Hall, you will see even more innovation. Across from the Fairway Rec Center (the old Town Hall) you will find the Fairway Apartment complex, two stories and all. It was the only place Webb tried that concept. On the other side of the road were the Mediterranean Villas, now called Villa Del Sol. These homes are attached and are quite unique with some of them having second floor additions that were a small bedroom or den. I know folks that live there and the two block stretch is highly sought after with an interesting close knit community within a community. They are right across from the Sun Bowl and you can hear the Sunday concerts without ever leaving you back or front yard. Interspersed are any number of apartment complex's that were 4 attached homes in a row. Some had garden courts for socializing while others faced the street with alleys separating them. DEVCO didn't get very creative in their designations and simply numbered them A1 through A13. The early years those units were, like the single family homes, simple block construction. Following a mason strike, DEVCO started using wood framing and it gave them more flexible design. Some of the smallest units available are in Phase 1 within the 800 square foot range. There are also still bargains to be had there as well. I always thought it would fun to take one of those 800-900 square and update it to the nines to see how nice it could become. I've seen a couple of the Fairway apts done and they are pretty impressive.
1969 might have been one of the most exciting times in Sun City's amazing history. The move across the tracks was challenging and disturbing to some. South of Grand was the community, north was simply a vast wasteland with virtually nothing but dirt roads. There were questions; would it change the small town feel of the community? Would those new home owners get to use their facilities? (that in 1968 just consolidated into one RCSC). I've written often, Meeker was a genius. He helped quell those fears by building something far more grandiose than anything previously constructed. Viewpoint lake was carved from nothing but cotton fields. The rec center adjacent to it, Lakeview, with it's round configuration was considered resort like and an amenity that visitors drooled over. Those south of Grand wanted in on the action, especially after someone pointed out there were potentially going to be more homes and amenities the other side of the tracks. Any resistance to becoming one entity was quickly squashed. To make it even more exciting, DEVCO built the model homes, Exposition for Living (model 60 series), right on the lake where he could showcase the lake lots. There were twin homes (duplexes), garden court apartments and something entirely different, Patio Homes. They are on Del Webb Blvd between Buccaneer and Cameo. There's 72 of the original patio homes, with three sizes; 1800, 1900 and 2200 square feet. They have front and back courtyards, common walls and no home owners association. The reason is, while they have common walls, they have no common grounds. If all of that isn't confusing enough, there are now "patio homes" along side and across the road from the originals that look like Garden court apts. These are larger units that in some cases are more than 2200 square feet. Those all have their own home owners associations. One of the early readers to this site bought one that had been totaled remodeled and it was drop dead gorgeous. The 70's brought a massive influx of buyers from the Midwest who wanted/needed their green space. There are tons of duplexes in Phase 2 all with loads of grass and huge trees providing shade and reminiscent of home. The Gemini twins were wildly popular due to the common areas being all grass; front, sides and back yards. With the construction of the Bell Rec Center and just before moving across Bell Road, DEVCO once again launched a new concept. The quads were integrated with the ever popular Garden Court units. These back to back to back to back 4 plexes are unique to the area around Bell road. My mother lived in a 1500+ square unit and absolutely loved the privacy it afforded. She put a huge patio across the front (in conjunction with her roof-mate to the side) and consequently had her own space out the side as well. Between the two spaces, she probably had 500 square feet of 6 ft walled patio. The biggest challenge in the coming years for those units is all the grass and what the cost of water will be. It looks like we may have dodged the consolidation issue (for now), but EPCOR appears to be set to shove a big increase at us in the form of a new rate case.
In 1974 DEVCO premiered Galleria "74. It included the obvious single family homes as well as the following attached homes: garden court apartments, duplexes, patio apartments and the foursomes. It is little wonder people tend to interchange the terms, patio apartments, vacation villas, garden court apartments and chalet apartments. They all tend to fall into that same family of units that DEVCO touted as "individual ownership," but with common grounds and their own home owners association. If you want to get even more confused ask if they are condo's or PUD's? Way beyond my pay grade. The pricing structure in 1975 is fascinating as well. Garden courts ranged from $28,990 to $34,490. Duplexes: $37,990-$50,490. Patio apartments: $33,990-$42,490. The foursomes: $42,490-$49,990. In 1976 they opened the Heritage Collection and oddly enough some of the smaller units had dropped in price while the larger more expensive had increased. By then the company saw the handwriting on the wall, sales in 1976 and 1977 had exploded and they knew they would be built out a couple of years before projected. No question, it was an exciting time to be buying and living in Sun City. For countless numbers of home buyers attached housing was the perfect solution. If they were snowbirds, they could turn the key and leave for the summer with no concerns. If they were year round, their outside maintenance was done for them and in most cases the size was easier to care for. To this day, new buyers are loving the concept of less headaches and downsizing to meet their needs. The only real problem/question is do you play well in the sandbox with others?
Hi, Thank you, BPearson for the great information on Sun City. I am currently looking into the community, and will be arriving for a tour at the end of the month. We currently live in Las Vegas now, so we will be prepared for the desert heat! I really like the flat roof architecture of some of the attached homes, but am open to all of the housing available. I read that you thought water might be a problem in the future for some of the greener areas. My mother likes patios, gardening and some greenery. So that could be a concern. The top of our budget is $200,000. In your opinion, is Sun City still a stable and prosperous community? And if so, what areas do you think are good buys right now? Thanks, for all you do for new people like us and this forum!
Hey Hh, welcome. Interesting, we looked at Vegas as one our destinations (Sun City Summerlin) but quickly decided against it. Too close to the gambling (we used to enjoy) and too pricey. We could get there in less than 5 hours once the new bridge was in, but it just isn't the same as it used to be. They used to let you play a while before they took your money, now you might as well drive by and throw the money out the window as you pass the casino. The challenge for the attached homes will be when they have massive green spaces and lots of trees (watering and maintenance gets expensive). There will be water, the bigger question is at what cost? For those who like to garden, there's lots of options, including joining the garden club and the plots they have available (next to the Prides building). Roses are plentiful here and there's any number of indigenous plants that flower and bloom as well. Some of the attached homes have reduced grass to areas in front of the homes or in the courtyards and works out better than when it is all green/all the time. For two hundred K (and less) there are lots of great options with both twins and quads that are every bit as large as the average single family home (which is around 1500-1600 square). You need to visit and see what your interests are. Phase 1 is south of Grand Ave and has the homes built primarily between 1960 and 1968. Phase 2 is between Grand Ave and Bell Road, kind of in the middle, and Phase 3 is north of Bell Road and has the newer homes (yet all were built pre-1978). All have their own characteristics and each rec center is appealing in their own way. There are 3 rec centers in phase 1, 3 in phase 2 and 1 in phase 3. Phase 2 is kind of in the middle of it all. The bigger questions are; do you want one remodeled, do you want to do the work yourself, or are you fine the way you buy it? Flippers have been buying up single family homes and not as much the attached. In most cases the attached can't be rented due to the associations CC&R's. If folks have done lots of work to them, the price obviously reflects that. The best advice i can give you is get an idea of what you want (sq footage, number of bedrooms/bathrooms and location) and then find a realtor who knows Sun City well and you won't waste your time looking at stuff you aren't interested in. You can private message (pm) me if you want a realtor. Hope that helps get you started. You cannot find a better value than the original Sun City.
Thanks, BP for the great input! They all sound like good options. One question I have is about the attached, do they allow you to have a roommate? I know that rentals are not allowed, and I like that, but we do want the option for my Mom to have a roommate in the future. Someone over 55, of course. I will live there with her for a year (I am almost sixty) to help her get settled into the new neighborhood. And who knows, may stay longer! We would prefer to have one remodeled, but it is not necessary. I assume the popcorn ceilings contain asbestos in the early phases. We will not be doing any remodeling ourselves, other than the basic handyman tasks. My only concern with buying a modern remodel, is will it hold its value in the downturn? Whenever that might be. Of course, no one knows the future. I will pm you regarding the realtor info. Thanks, again.
Absolutely on the roommate. Doesn’t need to be 55 either. One person in the household has to be 55. If someone moves in with mom if you leave, not a problem (unless they are 19 or under). Not sure on the asbestos, we are in phase 2 and it wasn’t an issue.
Good to hear about the roommate. That is an option we would like to have in the future. You were also right about Las Vegas. The value for the quality of living has gone down. It's too expensive now for what you get. Not only that, the crime rate is rising, and Sun City Summerlin borders the North where a lot of unwanted action occurs. And speaking of the casino's, they charge for everything now. There are no more comps unless you are a high roller. Parking, drinks, show tickets etc. All used to be included with no more than $20 dollars worth of gaming.
My Phase I never had popcorn ceilings to my knowledge. But, I suspect the original floor tile (and/or mastic) is asbestos in many/all P-I homes. Mine is under carpeting, so not a problem unless I wanted do different flooring that requires removing the tile.
