End of the year sale on RCSC Motions!!

WOW! There will be 12 motions voted on at the RCSC Board Meeting this month. Most notable is the raise in assessments to $496(a $22 increase I'm sure blamed on the minimum wage bill that was passed), monthly passes go from $60 to $75, punch card visits will be $3 a day, the age for swimming pools will be raised from 4 years old to 6 and the list goes on.

Check the whole list out at www.sunaz.com under the Corporate heading. This should bring a crowd to the Board Exchange meeting on December 5th. UGH! :miserable:

 

You're on top of it aggie. Do you know what is a Host Punch Card?

 

Cynthia- A RCSC cardholder can bring guests into the rec center facilities, purchase a 10-punch card good for 10 one day visits and each punch will allow use of any/all rec centers amenities for that day. The card is punched for each guest for each day of use. Currently the cards are $20 for 10 uses but will go to $30 after the first of the year. It is possible to get multiple days punched without having to accompany your guests each day. Check at any Rec Center check-in desk for more information.

 

Especially when the golfers see the increase! Lets me know not to go and ask for the taping of meetings, would be thrown out of the room. ha ha

This also raises the guest fees, which was already a contentious issue a full dollar per guest. WOW What a gift for the exiting board members to leave for the new members. I find the increases a little stiff, especially since most of the folks in Sun City probably didn't vote for this.

Hopefully there will be enough board members to speak up and rethink these charges before approval at the board meeting. Miracles do happen!

 

Freaking embarrassing.

 

It would be interesting to see what services, events etc have been or were considered to be cut or reduced prior to the decision to raise annual assessments, guest fees, golfing etc. Usually that should be the first consideration prior to further putting into jeopardy those in our membership who are low income and already have a difficult time paying the annual assessment. Most of us can afford the increase and justify it by saying that our assessments are lower than any other senior community but that old tune does nothing for our poverty income level members. There are thousands and the Sun City Foundation in its current condition is not the answer.

 

I would like to see the breakdown of how the fees were deemed necessary. A million dollar increase for wages sounds steep. Do they ever show their calculations?

 

I thought the $30 might constitute a savings. Silly of me.

 

As I have taken the time to fully read the proposed increases as well as changes, this appears to this writer to be a "knee jerk" reaction to a proposal someone didn't support. To have such horrible increase in fees, with no hearings or discussion within the community before introducing these rates, is an egregious error on the board's part. What are the total number of employees within the RCSC immediately affected? Perhaps 70 or so, and to what amount, another 80 cents per hour for another year? These increases in wages are over an increment of years, so why are we doing scorched earth math here? I know Ida can say "no" to the board, but can anyone one of the other board members see this is a horrible injustice to the community?

Are there any other capital expense items to be cut to minimize this type of over the top cost increases? And by the way, how does throwing four year old children out of the amenities help to save money? Is it because four year children were not charged before? This board needs to have a keen eye on what this type of publicity will do to the community, "grandma and grandpa can't afford to bring the kids to the pool anymore." Is this how Sun City honors its residents?

As Gary said earlier, what this type of increase does to those in need, which are at or below the poverty level, is devastating. The Foundation will not be able to help those in need, and may even force some folks out of their homes or have the RCSC foreclose on properties due to inability to pay yearly assessments. That little piece of information should make all of the board members cringe, foreclosing on properties because the disadvantaged can't pay the rec fees. Or how many medications or food must they surrender to afford to continue to live here? The home bound have no way to get to the food bank, especially since it moved to El Mirage. How many folks do you need to see thrown out into the streets because of excessive fee increases?

Rich, these amounts of increases needs a closer look by the board, a real tough scrutiny by the members, before presenting this for a vote. Look at all of the ways these increases can be mitigated over a several year period, not a slam dunk because someone's toes got stepped on. Look at ways to ease up the costs of the golf, the cost of the punch cards, and for crying out loud, don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

Ida, you have a good head on your shoulders, and I trust you to have gone over these items and know these are not realistic increases. Perhaps you can have a persuasive voice to the rest of the members?

Carol, please have compassion for the needs of the many. You are a beacon of light for the community, please reconsider these increases.

Ron, you were on the Posse and were commander, you have seen the level of destitution that exists in this community. You should know personally these fees are going to be back breaking to so many. Stand up for what is right for the citizens you are supposed to represent.

I can only plead with these board members to be astute in their direction, and search your conscience for the correct decision. These costs do not need to all be implemented all at once, know this and make the right choice for the residents of this community. Lead with what is right, not what sounds or feels convenient for the corporation, but for the cardholders beholden to you.

 

Actually CM i believe the minimum wage increase goes to $10 an hour on the first of the year; with further increases coming through till the year 2020. That said, Gary's point was spot on: Has the board and management looked for ways to off-set these increases rather than just jacking things up off the charts?

In a previous post along the way, i made a point to showcase the differences in running for-profit companies versus non-profits. They are significant, with for profits usually having far stronger outcome based criteria for all levels of employees. Obviously we will still be a non-profit, but with the increases in starting wages, there should be a careful evaluation of pay structures, production expectations and manpower coverage. All of that takes time, but it becomes essential if we are to minimize the impact of this new minimum wage.

It more appears the board/management has decided to just cover their costs by shoving it down members throats with monster increases. I won't even try to point out how large some of these bumps are, they become pretty evident and i suspect people will be up in arms at the board/member exchange and the ensuing board meeting.

All of this becomes even a larger argument for the work sessions to be open. Those of us who will be asked to foot the bill are simply flying blind as to what kind of "work" went into coming up with these increases. I guess come next Monday we will be able to ask questions and get answers, so it should be interesting.

Wonder how many of the potential candidates are questioning their decision to run, given the wrath coming along with these huge hikes in fees?

 

Hmmmm. Another example of why title 33 transparency is needed, IMHO.

In 2015, according to the RCSC financials posted on sunaz.com, total salary + benefits was about 8.8-million – roughly half the operating budget. 2016 seems on track to be $500K or so higher. Minimum hourly wages increase to $10/hr in January, which is about a 24% increase not counting benefits increases which are wage related.

So, is a nearly 5% increase in the yearly assessment for 2017 warranted due to the minimum wage + benefits increase? I have no idea since I have insufficient financial details to judge... I have no idea what portion of the TOTAL is for hourly employee wages below $10/hr? I would assume it's relatively small, but how small?

Regardless, I do know, as usual, my SS increase this year will be insufficient to fund the RCSC fee increase. Of course, my cost for food, medical, insurance, taxes, etc will rise too. That means my budget must increase its deficit spending. Thankfully, I am still able to work to survive... sadly, far too many SC residents don't have that option. Nor will I at some point in the future.

 

Questions on Monday may be forthcoming, but answers that satisfy
those attending will likely be cloaked in secrecy or answered in
a way that will leave you guessing.

No one likes increases, especially me, but they are a fact of life.

Sun City is no different than any other organization in many respects,
but Sun City has a disadvantage in that it tries to accommodate
every whim and request of its members. It cannot continue to spend
40 million on golf and course improvements that are not accepted
by the fraction of users that use the courses without substantial
increases to those that use the courses. It cannot continue to
support and fund all the different clubs that people want to form
without substantial fee increases to those in the clubs. It cannot
continue to provide all the entertainment people demand without
fees imposed upon those enjoying that entertainment. Sun City cannot
continue to be the provider of everything that everyone wants
without substantial fee increases. Someone, everyone, must contribute
to the kitty to keep all these amenities coming at reduced or no cost.

Expecting the board/management to cut expenditures to cover the cost
increases associated with minimum wage increases is unrealistic.
Anything that the members expect for free or reduced cost that are
cut will cause an uproar, but those members will not show up at the
member exchange or the board meetings.

We have a membership that will not get involved. They are happy with the
status quo. They will not stand up to the board/management as they have
against Epcor and APS. Those two entities are seen as big business
and the membership tries to stand up to those entities by signing form
letters and showing up for dog and pony shows from those entities at
the rec center.

Unless or until the membership shows up in force at member exchanges and
board meetings, the board/management will continue to impose their will
on the membership.

The board/management does a good job providing facilities, forums, and
notification of important rate cases, but does not provide the same
for proposed increases to the PIF, Rec Fees, and golf fees. The vast
majority will only complain and then accept those increases.

Sun City cannot continue to be the "be all", "end all" for its membership
without increases in fees.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Nowhere in the bylaws or CC&R's
does it state that when you buy in Sun City you will never ever again
have any increases in fees and continue to receive all the amenities that
everyone wants for free.

 

Good comments guys and clearly this is currently a topic only a handful of Sun City residents know about. I see the golf rate increases are only $1 per round and part of the logic is every time they increase rates there is a drop off in play. Rough calculations are the $2 per month hike will generate about $600,000 per year (if my math is right). Clearly the punch card and monthly rate privilege card increases will generate a significant revenue as this is 33% increase. For a couple renting and using the centers for a month, the new fee for will be $150 rather than $120. If they are here for more than three months, they will just pay the $496 rate (though they need show a rental agreement so not sure how that works for a 4 or 5 month stay).

Obviously more goes up for the RCSC than just the minimum wage increases. That said, any employer with an ounce of common sense will restructure their entire wage package to recognize what a $10 starting rate will do to them. Condensing everything from top to bottom will change things dramatically, but if it's done right it can help offset increases in the coming years. For some employees it will be a tough pill to swallow as longevity will have a lessor value.

One thing SCR touched on was the Pay To Play concept. Since near on our inception, there have been those promoting it. I'm not i favor as it would change the entire construct of the community. I do think long term we need look at whether we need duplicate and triplicate clubs across the community.That to me is exactly why a Long Range Planning Committee is vital; it would play an integral role in helping the board make the tough decisions we will need to make in the coming years.

Simply shoving huge increases down our throat cannot be the answer, and i think it is safe to sound once residents know about them the rancor factor will get quite nasty.

 

Aren't some clubs already essentially pay to play... eg, the craft clubs? Don't they buy their saws and welders and kilns, etc with their own money? Don't those clubs function, out of necessity, essentially as non-profit businesses? Some are quite successful – I understand several have very substantial bank account balances. True, the RCSC provides facilities, light, cooling/heat, cleaning, etc. for these clubs, so they do consume some of the assessment dollars. But they are not a significant drain on the RCSC budget – certainly not to the extent of the pools, exercise rooms, etc.

I'd bet somewhere between 30-40% of SC residents are uninvolved -- don't use the facilities and/or find the assessment a financial burden. I've heard board members and residents callously say “those people” should never have moved to SC – that it's their own choice/fault if they can't afford it now. I'm not all that ashamed to admit that a tiny part of me hopes these naysayers get to personally experience some bad luck someday so they can live in someone else's shoes for a change.

IMHO, the uninvolved live here. They are members. They have just as much right to a say in how the RCSC functions as the rest of us. Over the years the boards have carefully and deliberately made bylaw changes designed to keep the membership in submission. To answer SCR's charge, I'd submit that the members lack of interest is not so much because they are lazy, rather they aren't interested because they know they have no power to effect change – so why waste time and energy getting involved. It's a huge obstacle to overcome. The board has the organization, money and media advantage. The members have what?

My hope is someone will eventually gather enough of a following to have sufficient member proxys to vote against the board. Hmmm... perhaps a "club"

IMO, while the "club" idea is good, without significant outreach it will have difficulty engaging the uninvolved and infirm that so desperately need a voice and add legitimacy to the cause.

 

For the rec center fee it comes to 6 cents a day. So some of you want to cut because of that? If they start cutting anything you can kiss those increases in property values goodbye. No more houses and condos selling in a day or two.

This is an active adult community and the RCSC should be constantly improving and adding clubs, amenities, and yes, adding more buildings so more can be offered. Some people do move here for what I think may be the wrong reasons and they have every right to do so, but they also have to realize where they moved and what this place is and that the board can never really take them into consideration. If Sun City starts to drop in value due to board decisions the same people complaining about the increase will be complaining about that. For the people that think the increase will be a burden to some residents I have to ask is there any place else they can live for what we pay to live here? I doubt it. Let them see the tax bills for people that live in an equivalent home but in a school district. Let them see the yearly rent increases if they think an apartment somewhere else would be better. If they are poor in Sun City they will be a lot poorer just about anyplace else.

I do have sympathy for some of our older residents but that should be up to other organizations. I did add Sun City Foundation when I changed my will. They get a third. I hope some of you will consider doing the same.

 

The craft clubs are an interesting mic IC. And to answer your question, some clubs do spend more money on things and typically they are the ones with dedicated space and equipment they need/use to make the stuff they produce. That said, the craft clubs also generate sales with the club and the member benefiting from the sale of merchandise. Win/win as they say.

As far as the club i was considering, my biggest challenge was in how to structure it for outreach, which over the years i have been involved has always been the biggest challenge in Sun City.

Kudos to you g47 on adding the Sun City Foundation to your list of beneficiaries. While president it was one of the things we talked about doing, but never got any traction; setting up a more effective structure to encourage bequeaths.

There may in fact be a good reasons for the increase and we know the increase in minimum wage is the real deal. That said, what you have read here has been the ongoing complaints of the lack of transparency. Closed door meetings should be a thing of the past. Recorded meetings should be available for watching any time day or night. Asking whether the RCSC explored cutting costs is hardly suggesting we are "cutting" from the community is nonsense. Accountability, especially as costs and spending has exploded, becomes more real and when they hide behind closed doors it gives the perception they are hiding something. And as we know, perceptions become reality for some/many. Just curious, where did you get you the 6 cents a day figure for the RCSC fee, there's nothing even close to that? With the increase, we come in right around $2 per day per household. And in fact, when you take the 33% increase in privilege cards and punch cards (which often we buy for friends and relatives to use the facilities) you are talking about $2.50 per day (privilege card on a monthly basis) and $3 per day.

 

G47, it's good to have differing opinions – they expose one to many different sides of an issue...

If a property sells in a day or two it is either under priced or its an impulse buy. But I do believe the RCSC amenities and fees can affect whether a buyer looking for such things purchases in SC or one of the competition.

For most of SC's existence property values has been the mantra of those defending whatever the board does, but it's hard to prove it's true. My take is property values are affected by many things – recreation amenities being a minor one. My home's retail value has varied up and down about 30% corresponding with the housing market ups and downs. But it has NOT increased in value to any significant extent – the last appraisal was only slightly more than I paid originally. Yet the RCSC has spent over $100-million on improvements to golf and rec centers during that period. The reality is no matter what you do, you own a home that's 30-50 years old and, depending on what part of SC you're in, may have insufficient closet space, inadequate wiring, and no garage. You probably will never get back your remodeling expenses.

Honestly, if you're worried about your home's resale value I encourage you to focus more on what depreciation and inflation are doing, what remodeling costs are, etc. I think you'll find a SC home's value will struggle to keep pace with inflation (which has been about 35% in the last 15-years). The cost to remodel your home to offset depreciation and its “dated” look could run 30-50% of it's value. Those in phase 3 will see better returns in remodeling than those in phase 2. Phase 1 is a struggle. However, the low taxes, low “HOA” fees (think SCHOA + RCSC fees), safe community close to good medical, etc draws all buyers, whether they use the amenities or not. Hence, as the middle class erodes SC becomes increasingly attractive to lower income buyers and investors (for property for rentals), especially in phase1.

Buy that logic it should just keep getting bigger with more amenities each year? You do know golf is a declining sport? You do know many clubs struggle to meet the minimal membership required? SC's population is essentially fixed, how can it keep expanding? Is bigger really always better? Quality is better than quantity in my book -- eg, I'd rather have 2 new release movies a month in a facility with comfortable seating than 4 movies already on cable & sitting on folding chairs. I'd rather play one really good golf course twice a month than play twice a week on mediocre courses, etc.

They don't care. They are following the covenants, paying fees and expecting their opinions will carry the same weight as yours and mine. In the end they must – else the board will be in violation of the charter documents, which say RCSC is to provide for the members, not a subset of the members. We may all be dust in an urn by then, but it will happen. That's why real long range planning is so important... planning that considers the changing demographics and recreational trends so the RCSC is where it needs to be 10, 20, and 30 years from now. The SCHOA needs to also since Millennials and Gen Z'ers may not accept our current covenants. SC must evolve if it is going to survive.

 

That's one way to look at it, and I don't mean to beat a dead horse. Certainly the economy is growing, inflation was 1.8% in '16 and is forecast to be 2.4% '17 -- so costs are raising and we should expect some increase. The minimum wage increase is less than 30-days away. Good budgeting looks for savings to offset increases.

And just to be clear, not EVERYTHING is going up. My SS and my pension aren't. My investment interest rates and most dividends still haven't recovered to their pre-recession (2007) level. These are things we all have little control over... so we either have done with less or we elected to deplete our nest egg (ie, spend our kids inheritance).

OTOH, the RCSC is an expense over which we do/should have some control. In fact, we SHOULD, as a community, have a LOT of say in what the RCSC spends. In spite of their "we're the RCSC corporation, can do anything we want" logic, morally they SHOULD follow the will of the members. And many of us believe the charter documents DEFINE that they must. Yet the RCSC hasn't rained themselves in at all, at least in a visible way. In the past 5 years the value of a dollar has risen less than 5% yet our Assessments have risen over 10% and the PIF over 16%. I'm not one who simply resists all spending increases. I'm more than cognizant that they are still trying to recover from the lack of adequate maintenance/replacement funding for the first 40 or so years of the RCSC's existence. But the board and management need to do a better job of balancing membership income trends vs RCSC spending, cuz once the well is dry, it's dry!. If the RCSC truly needs the $22 increase they should be perfectly able to give a detailed accounting to show why.

 

I have to say IC, you are easily one of the best reads regarding Sun City i have come across in all my years here. Often times we get caught up in the emotional aspect of arguments, while you seem to stay focused on the practical matters surrounding the issues. It is refreshing.

This mornings meeting should be interesting; will they answer questions or simply expect us to eat it with the minimum wage is going up argument? The tenor of the meetings just might become the nucleus for some much needed changes: Will they finally come to their senses and re-establish the long range planning committee? Will they recognize the significance of recording these member exchange and board meetings for viewing? Will they even consider open door meetings for work sessions?

There should be enough rancor over these increases that incoming board members will try and find ways to reach out to the community and make it a more inclusive style of governance...returning to the roots of our earlier years.

We'll see eh?

 

Disappointing member exchange this morning. It appears none of the board members have looked into the concept of exploring or even making cut backs in any expenditures to assist in keeping the annual fee and other fee increases to a lower level. They say they have but they couldn't remember what they were. They want to keep all the benefits and freebies the same without making tough decisions by putting anything on the chopping block. It also appears that a fair amount of the 20 or so members in attendance didn't want to give up anything either. There is nothing wrong with that as long as you have the resources to keep paying increases. Remember that every time there is an increase the number of have-nots (low income members) increase and cease to have the ability to participate. Are we not giving enough thought to that segment of our RCSC membership base? Also remember that there was a clarification made that the fee increases in all the motions are for next year only with the probable similar increases each year for the next three years. While we can applaud the work that the volunteer elected directors do we must be concerned that their "work" is in the right direction and that the "work" has some depth to it. At the moment I personally feel compelled to question that.