Impact of today's board decision to postpone indefinitely the PAC at Lakeview decision

Tom may want to correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the motion to postpone indefinitely effectively kills the motion because the year (Session) will expire before the motion can be revived and have two readings. Once the session ends all motions not passed automatically expire and must be made anew.

Best Regards and God Bless,

John

 

Regardless of being near the end of the year, the motion to postpone indefinitely simply kills it as if it was never offered.

I will only point out that the RCSC does not consider a "session" to last the entire year. Each individual meeting is defined as a "session":

But the real reason a motion dies at the end of the year is because new Directors are installed at the beginning of the new year.

49:22 Effect of Periodic Partial Change in Board Membership. In cases where a board is constituted so that a specified portion of its membership is chosen periodically (as, for example, where one third of the board is elected annually for three-year terms), it becomes, in effect, a new board each time such a group assumes board membership. Consequently, when the outgoing portion of the board vacates membership, all matters temporarily but not finally disposed of (see 9:8–11, 38:8), except those that remain in the hands of a committee to which they have been referred, fall to the ground under provision (c) in 21:7. (See also 50:30, regarding the continuity of matters that have been referred to a special committee appointed by the board.) If the board is one that elects its own officers or appoints standing committees, it chooses new officers and committees as soon as the new board members have taken up their duties, just as if the entire board membership had changed. The individual replacement of persons who may occasionally vacate board membership at other times, however, does not have these effects

 

You realized that MV was killed also as there was two parts to the motions or am I misinformed?

 

I'll just cut and paste the same message in response as i did on the other thread:
What i heard them say was they planned to continue to ask Tri-Arc to continue to work on Mountain View. It is important to see exactly what the "elements" were/are at MV?

Looking at the 10 year PIF budget has some line items with no details. In fact, as i quickly perused it, there appeared to be some severely under budgeted projects. I thought the goal was to get away from SWAG's and use solid numbers.

 

Director Rough stated right at the end of the meeting that the BOD will develop a plan for all of Sun City. Seemed ambiguous at best and I would suggest some parameters be developed for the so called “master plan”.

 

Hello engaged members,

I speak for no one and every one that does not speak. There are some difficult decisions to make, No doubt. During the recall campaign, which continues in full and may be expanded, I heard one common theme: The board lacks integrity. As I search my Soul, I would rephrase this as the Board is human and has led themselves into temptation. The temptation to allocate the communities' money to their favorite cause: Indoor Pooch Parks, Glamorous PAC's, Pickleball and rebuilding golf courses. The "political theater" is full of drama worthy of a New York theater production. A director attacks lawn bowling which has never been the issue in my mind.
I will add my two cents which is exactly what it is worth. We lack credible leadership. And our process guarantees we will always repeat this cycle. What we end up with every election cycle are representatives of special interest groups. Which interest group controls the Board?
I was trying to change that.
If you ask me why I made the sacrifices I made, you will find a simple answer: Members Matter and Character Matters.

Best Regards and God Bless,

John Fast

 

Yes, that's probably true, however, a Board filled with Directors with no term limits creates a totally separate dilema.

I think it's healthier for the Member's to have a Board that changes out 1/3rd of its Directors every year, rather than a Board that's stagnant and seldom changes.

True, there probably would have been a decision on the PAC and Mountain View a long time ago with a fixed Board, but here again, would it be what the Members wanted or would it be what the Board wanted?

I don't believe the changing of the guard every year is the problem. The problem is there is no system in place, no real leadership, and nobody knows how logically to step thru the process. Even though the Board has Officers, no Director is really any less important than any other, and no one Director wants to look like the bully and call all the shots. We had a few Directors like that not to long ago and all saw what a disaster that was!

Hopefully, from now on and once they implement BP-16's Business Case, decisions will be easier to make and more quickly come to fruition, but we're not there yet!

Perhaps a good start to the, so-called, comprehensive plan for either Lake View or the entire Sun City as whole would be to use BP-16?

Perhaps where everything really falls apart, is the fact that so few of our 30,000 Members ever get engaged. If we can ever get that delema fixed, we will always know exactly what the majority of entire community really wants!?!?

Just my opinion!

 

A happy retirement is a time when you hopefully have the financial freedom and physical ability to do things that make you happy, while also finding purpose and emotional wellness.

Like everything else recently there is no transparency, and it appears residents don't matter unless we come out in droves and protest. It should not be this difficult. How can a person enjoy retirement if you have to keep fighting the BOD who is supposed to be listening to us in the first place? Retirement is supposed to be fun, not an RCSC nightmare. People are getting tired, angry, fed up and just don't care. I saw that in the responses to my question on ND re thoughts on the PAC. Info does not get out there. You all keep posting here where only about 7 people post. I got around 60 responses regarding the PAC on each post I made.

We are behind by around 400 home sales from last year. 5K to buy into a 60-year-old community, high assessment fees. Raise those rates. Build multi-million-dollar buildings we don't need, and price us all out of Sun City.

Then the big board debacle with deferred maintenance, libraries, grand, t-bird and now PAC. People retired to live out their best life here in God's waiting room, not fight daily with board members. It doesn't have to be this way, but it is. And now with high PIF/CIF if anyone wants to sell (like they could right now) they would probably have to decrease their price by those amounts to get a buyer. Why pay that much when you have newer/nicer communities nearby. Keep in mind when flippers come in they do cosmetics, not guts, and buyers know that.

 

The above comments by both John and Tom are spot on. The difficulty is as always the proper balance between the board and the general manager. Each has their separate lane, yet each wants/try's to encroach on the other. Perfect balance is a myth. During my tenure the board readily gave up most of their leadership obligations, in return the board's work load was reduced. The GM was rewarded with more work, more freedom and little oversight.

Let me dig deeper into John's remarks. I alluded to it in recent comments regarding the 2023 SAC efforts and why it went astray. I sat through most of the meetings and was impressed by the high level of involvement; albeit with too many agendas at play. Perhaps most disconcerting were the three board members. Karen was deeply invested in pickleball. Jeff was all about golf and John was perhaps the most straight-forward regarding his views in keeping the costs for the Mountain View remodel low/reasonable.

I say these things not to disparage anyone. Personal bias by itself isn't wrong. In fact, one could argue golf is important; one could argue pickleball is growing and important; and in retrospect, John's argument/position about how much we should invest at the 6 acre Mountain View tract was also important. I will push that envelope even further, as i mentioned in another thread, board members and general managers have always questioned whether a single use PAC was money well spent. I know the players don't want to hear that, but the one reason it has taken so long has been because the support for a free-standing theater has always been limited at best. Members argue they want comfortable seating, which is wholly different than a free-standing PAC.

The oddity is, not much has changed, other than the cost of building anything has gone up. The question still lingers; what are our needs? The best thing Marlene did when she came in was move the needle on what the must-haves at Mountain View were. Even that was a challenge as some saw compromise as a dirty word, while others were coerced into taking less.

In the end, it still comes back to what do we really need? Not what we really want? Those are two different things and sadly, we all get caught up in our personal belief system of what we think is important. The biggest challenge in how to proceed at MV will be what goes there? The fact the goal was to place the PAC at Lakeview then freed up the old auditorium to be repurposed or, torn down and rebuilt. Because we don't know what the "elements" are there, we don't know what was going to replace it?

Looking at the 10 year PIF, it certainly appears an indoor dog arena was included; somewhere. We know a new pool and smaller size fitness area are in the cards, but we know nothing about the pickleball plans? We don't know if the tennis players will get a second venue; either at MV or resurfacing the courts at Lakeview. There-in is the failure of the 2024 board, we are actually further away from the MV remodel now than we were the end of 2023.

I love we are going to start to look at big picture Sun City and something/anything that resembles a strategic and cohesive plan. I'm even fine starting with just Lakeview. That center should be built with an eye towards the future and generation X that are starting to arrive. By the time it's built, generation Y will be the next wave.

One of the best things coming out from the board/management was the flat space review. With some 27 available flat spaces, the only one that got the kind of utilization that was solid was the Sundial auditorium. John would remember better but i think it was in the 60% range. Many of the others were 20-30%. We simply have too much space that is under-utilized (in my opinion). One of the board's projects should be like Sun City West did and create a space utilization committee. Putting empty rooms to better use is far cheaper than building more buildings that will sit empty the majority of the time.

Finally, i have always favored multi-use buildings. Single use/purpose doesn't allow us the flexibility we need as the community changes. It's always why there has been limited support of a free-standing theater. Yes others than the players will use it, the question should always be how much? And then of course, at what cost? Thank goodness we have finally started spending money on the projects we neglected. The reality is we have come to understand everything we have/want comes at a cost.

 

And on that note Chris posted on ND something called "Perhaps" by BPearson (with permission). At first I thought good, getting some info to other people. Then I scrolled down and she posted 2 comments herself and immediately closed any further discussion. What are you all afraid of? So what if someone disagrees with you. That was a chance to get opinions more than the 7 people here. Transparency? I don't think so.

About Board meeting Thursday, November 21, 2024 • 300-400 filled the room • 100 signed up to speak • PAC on the Lakeview greens?? RCSC board postpones vote indefinitely on PAC
Discussion closed 1 day ago.Learn more »

 

As all of this moves forward, or doesn't, i would offer one lesson i learned during my work life that is applicable. As we were building one of the several web sites we used for our local union, we started it off by bringing in professional strategists. One of the recommendations they made before we brought in a large diverse group of members and others, they told us emphatically; answer the what question before doing/starting anything.

It was a lesson i took to heart with every organization i participated in since moving here. To be blunt, most of the boards weren't into thinking strategically. Nope, not being critical because the vast majority of board members or members of the organization are not looking 5, 10 or 15 years out. They know they are there for the short term and are most happy maintaining the status quo. I used to laugh, long term planning in Sun City was more about what your were doing next month. Short term was what you were doing this week.

Now that i have insulted some, let me offer up a suggestion regarding the master plan Lakeview project. Do it right, make it an inclusive project and start off with these two questions:
1). What is Sun City?
2). What do you want it to be 10 years down the road?

I know that will slow the process, but the reality of the Lakeview renovation is that it will be the guiding light for the coming generations. If done right/well we will be looking at 40, 50 or even 60 million dollars. It's a huge challenge, but if done right, invaluable for the community as a whole.

 

I again find myself agreeing with Bill. There is simply too much thinly veiled back door politics at play with the GM and Board. Sorry but they don't listen to the "unenlightened masses" or the crazies as several board members have called them. Having returned to just being a member I can tell you I do not matter and neither do you. Truly sad. It does not have to be that way.

The reason I am pushing so hard to develop a data-based master plan for Sun City is it takes a great deal of the politics out of our long-term planning. Recent events have shown how damaging ad hoc decision making by a chosen few can be to community unity. If you read the recall petitions you will see that the reason for recall is unethical behavior - This was written by someone with a lifetime of experience in law enforcement who never commented about anything. Think about that!

Quite honestly, I do not see how this board and GM will ever be able to overcome the damage they have done to the integrity of the institution.


Best Regards and God Bless,

John

 

Agree! And as far as moving, which I want to do, there are over 600 homes for sale right now in Sun City according to Realtor.com. I have a feeling with the new higher PIF/CIF if I want to sell I would have to reduce the price by that amount. Not sure who would want to buy in at those prices.

Even going back to 2020 someone bought in SCW instead of SC due to reading the Independent and TOSC, so evidentially people have been watching.

 

For what its worth, this is child's play compared to some of the old gob-smacking knock down drag out battles from Sun City's origins. I could post articles from the early 80's that would make your head spin. Admittedly, currently there are open wounds, no matter which side you are on. There-in is the problem, sides aren't how this should work.

To John's point, when using data to drive decisions, life becomes far less complicated; unless or until the position you are advocating for isn't a priority. I'll be redundant and remind folks of the sticking points from my perspective:
1). The PAC; single use or multi purpose venue? Where to locate it?
2). More pickleball courts; indoor, covered or just more courts? Mountain View.
3). Indoor dog arena; it wasn't even a thing during the SAC. Now it appears to have funding; location?
4). Tennis courts; a second venue besides Bell. Lakeview or Mountain View?
5). Lawn Bowling greens; how many, where?

All of the above was on the way to be being resolved (short of the indoor dog arena) via the SAC. The problem was compounded when it appeared several board members didn't agree with Plan M (Marlene-architect). It was kicked back to another architect firm and while it is simply a wild ass guess, it looked a lot like there was a gentle shove to have it end up on water front.

Now we are stuck as we have not seen the elements for Mountain View (will we ever?), so we don't know what the next step was supposed to be had the Lakeview greens plan worked. I have to mention again; 3 weeks to shove that through is shameful at best. To make matters worse, we have no idea what the plan is/was when they proposed they build the new PAC at Lakeview and at the same time renovate Mountain View. It would have left the players out of a location to perform for the 1-2 years to get them both done.

Here's my historical two cents worth: In spite of the bitter battles over all kinds of topics, Sun City never lost its sense of community. Today we are seeing the community being ripped apart and rather than looking for solutions to solve the problems it sounds like we are running from the challenges rather than running towards them and embracing them.

Hope i am wrong; we'll see.

 

You confuse me. You have repeatedly said we need to get back to the origins of SC and how things used to work. I don't recall hearing of any gob-smacking. Also history is important so we can learn from it and repeat what works and fix what doesn't work. Why is SC repeating what doesn't work?

People are just getting tired. There are a few on ND who have just given up. Voting link was posted and the consensus was why bother? Only 2 new and 4 same old same old. Seems like the powers that be forgot there are peasants in the land.

 

I think we do need a full master plan , with an immediate action to do MV first.
I still don't want a large building a PAC, sitting in front of our lake front. Something that enhances the needs, but maintains the natural beauty and openness for many who just like being outside enjoying nature. Not everyone is here to be in buildings everyday. I just love enjoying being outside happy with what being outside offers for making my life more restful. Can any board please keep these things in mind. It has worked for 60 years. The elements need to work for all and not further urbanize the area, something we can never get back. It was a rush-job started by someone who truly wants to have it there way. I truly hope the BOD finds some respect for the folks living in here. Thanks.

 

I too am in favor of building a master plan for all our recreation before we proceed.

 

To add context here are some quotes from one thread. Maybe the BOD should see these?

I was shocked at how difficult it is to find the link to the actual voting page so I could vote. They did what they're calling a "facelift" to the main site yet there's no clear direction as to where to go to vote. I sent feedback on this through the new "service request" platform, suggesting they plaster a big notification on the website which trumpets the availability of online voting and has a direct link to the voting site. The response was that they don't have that capability at this time. Wow. Just wow.

does it really matter these days? doesn't sound like any candidates want any radical change which is what SC needs. Over my 18 years owning here, every board has been shrouded in secrecy, pretending to be transparent, while they do exactly what they want. the rcsc is worse than a nightmare hoa.

I think most just gave up. It's not fun being retired when you have to gather in large groups every time there is a board meeting to keep them from doing something

also the closed door board meetings.

And I thought my HOA is a nightmare. Thank my lucky stars I did not end up in any of the Sun City - locations. It sounds like they are slowly bleeding you guys dry. You have my utmost sympathy. Would much rather choose to pay for my amenities ala carte.

are other options to the method in voting? Asking for those who struggle with the website or for other reasons.

•Sun City We are moving to a Sun City West and I'm inquiring about T mobile internet. Do any of you guys have it and like it?

 

Are these Mountain View & PAC elements no longer valid?
Mountain View Renovation Process
• Steps necessary prior to construction.
• Elements – PAC / Theater
• Elements of the New Mountain View
https://suncityaz.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/02/Mountain-View-Process-2-5-24.pdf
February 5, 2024

From Board Meeting Minutes
February 29, 2024

Prior to the PowerPoint Presentations, Director Rough made the following statement: I want to talk about the process that the Board is initiating.
The Board has decided to go forward with the elements for each part of the remodel and get architects and engineers to look at the details of what we want at Mountain View and the Performing Arts Center (PAC). We don’t know how much that will cost, but the process is one of identifying details so that the architect/engineer can design the remodel.

No details of the design are determined as yet. We need to get the design and plans to submit to the county for approval. We still won’t know what it’s really going to cost until the completed plans go to construction companies for bid.

2. Director Kise – I move to approve the Mountain View Recreation Center and Performing Arts Center elements developed by the Board of Directors and to direct the General Manager to use the elements to seek bids to renovate the recreation center and to build or renovate a performing arts center.
Discussion by the Board was had, and Director Collins called the question. Treasurer Borski seconded the calling of the question, and after the vote, the motion to call the question failed 1 to 8 with all opposed except Director Collins. After continued discussion, the vote was taken on the motion which passed its second reading 7 to 2 with Director Fast and Secretary Totten opposed.
https://suncityaz.org/wp-content/uploads/minutes-agendas-newsletters/Summary_2024-02-29.pdf

 

“However, now that the PAC decision is postponed indefinitely and board members are leaving, I do believe the time to do a recall was missed with the library debacle.”
Emily Litella

Library Blame Game winner is General Manager Matthew D'Luzansky, not the Board of Directors.

If any action was to or still should be taken, it’s with D'Luzansky’s employment status.

Facts Matter
• D'Luzansky, without board knowledge, notified Maricopa County in February, that RCSC would not be renewing our Fairway and Bell five-year leases ending in June, 2024.

• Maricopa County Library District officials informed The Friends of the Sun City Libraries, Inc.

• Sue Blechl, President, Friends of the Sun City Libraries, “SAVE OUR LIBRARIES,” that effectively released the outrageous news to the community and unaware board directors.

• RCSC Board of Directors called an URGENT meeting with Management.

• Overwhelmingly show of community support demanding RCSC “SAVE OUR LIBRARIES” at the Member Exchange meeting April 8, 2024

•RCSC General Manager Matthew D’Luzansky Comments Presented at 4/25 BOD Meeting (May UPDATE edition)
My mistake was working with the Maricopa County Real Estate Department that initiated the discussion with me in February, rather than dealing directly with the Maricopa County Library District. This has been remedied a couple weeks ago, when we had a great meeting with the Library District, and should have a new five year lease for both libraries, in the near future, and well before the current lease ends.

• RCSC Updates: Library Lease, PAC Relocation, and Thunderbird Property Negotiations
September & October UPDATE editions
published this same information:
Library Lease Still Under Review
RCSC has been in ongoing discussions with the Maricopa County Library District (MCLD) regarding the library lease. The MCLD has submitted the latest lease document to their legal department for review. We will keep you informed as developments occur.

• November Board Meeting
The board informed members the new five-year leases for the community’s two public libraries had been agreed to by both the board and the Maricopa County Library District director, signed by RCSC and were now only awaiting signature by the county board of directors. “We finally received the okay from the county attorney’s office (to send them for signature)


No additional updates known to me.
If there are, please share credible, sourced ones. Thanks.