A short time back my mentor and friend Ben Roloff and I gave a presentation at one of the senior community centers in Sun City. It was a small group and we took the liberty of asking those in attendance where they came from and how they found Sun City? One of the gentlemen said he came here in 1960 with his bride to be. Seems his parents had just moved into Sun City on June 20, 1960 and he wanted his parents to be at the wedding. The easiest thing was to come out here from Wisconsin, rather than asking them to fly home. Who knows, his might just be the first marriage in the fledgling community? Turns out Ben, who has amazing recall, remembered one of the first oral histories done by the Sun City Area Historical Society (Del, Webb Sun Cities Museum) was an interview of Mildred Toldrien. That would be the mother of the man we were chatting with, Fred Toldrien. It gets better though because Ben stopped by the museum and printed out the 24 page interview and dropped a copy off for Fred and me. Reading through it is stunning on so many levels. Next week, we are going to do an interview with him as well. The initial interview was done on Feb 7, 1992. Melanie Sturgeon did a great job of getting Mildred to open up about her life, how she ended up in Sun City and what made it so special for her and her husband. The museum has some 200 plus of these oral histories, some better than others. The human realities of life for those living through the depression and finding their way to this beautiful desert oasis called Sun City is engaging and fascinating. Here's just an example: Surgeon: Had you ever thought about moving to a place like Sun City where there were just older people? Toldrien: When we came here Sun City had not been started. We came Labor Day of 1958. And this did not start until January 1, 1960. But as a i look i really believe that we just felt we wanted warm weather. I was so tired of the dampness back in Milwaukee. Wisconsin is a beautiful state but i just didn't care for that damp weather and cold. When i was growing up i walked two miles to high school in that bitter cold-20 degrees below and a north wind blowing. I had enough of that-don't want anymore of that. These oral histories are mere blips on the screen, but in so many ways, they tell us how and why Sun City was able to succeed and flourish even though the experts said it would never work. We know the guys (Webb, Boswell, Meeker et al) behind DEVCO were committed to build it, but from a practical standpoint, they always knew they would leave and the residents would be the ones who would ultimately make or break it. It's their stories that our the backbone of the community most of us love. Stay tuned as we dig deeper.
Do you ever really go away? I don't think so. You promise, you break your promise which means you lie. Your time is gone. Give the new people their chance. 78, time to let go. It's not 1960 anymore Gramps!
Thanks for he posting Bill. I alternate between just letting the grumps here ruin this site or trying to keep it alive. Thanks for helping keep it alive. I recognize that this is not about you, it is about the stories you can tell.
Bill, I agree with CT, nice post. Why I like history so much is that we don’t know where we are going if we don’t understand where we have been. To bad there are too many obtuse people here who don’t understand that.
Thanks guys, once this election is over, life will go on one way or the other. While i don't always agree with John Fast, his comment regarding the shit show this site is becoming made sense. Continuing on with Mildred's story, i loved this commentary as it is truly reflective of what once was: Sturgeon: When you were first married you were right in the middle of the depression weren't you? In 1935-was it hard for your family? Toldrien: Well, my husband had a job which helped. I don't think it was so hard for our family as it was for some others. But you know, back in those days they didn't give money for relief. If you needed help you go go and if they had lots of oatmeal or flour or sugar or whatever they had, you would get that. And the children they would get shoes and clothing, but nothing like giving money for relief. We never had to go for relief we always managed. Sturgeon: Did you have friends or relatives who had a real hard time then? Do you remember? Toldrien: I know my sister-in-law and brother-in-law had a hard time. We helped them out quite a bit. Back then everybody helped everybody else in the family. If somebody had problems we would all kind of pitch in and help. Those of us who had a little more would help. I suspect one of the reasons Sun City was so successful was because of that mindset of caring for one another and taking ownership of the challenges and becoming personally responsible and accountable.
Ah yes, “What can be, unburdened by what has been” - Kamala Harris “What can be, unburdened by what has been” - Karl Marx
For anyone who listens and pays attention, there are always interesting stories about how buyers first found Arizona. I Mildred's case it's quite fascinating: Sturgeon: And i forget, did you tell me you taught after you were finished at the State Teachers College in Milwaukee? Toldrien: I taught one year after i finished and then we were in the depression and it was very difficult to get a job and this was a little country school and i just thought i would get away, so i went to Milwaukee and then i started working as a tutor with the children of wealthy people in the area. So that was when i came out to Arizona for the first time. They had six children and they had trunks and loads of books. Down near Oracle Arizona, which is not far from Tuscon, and we were here for two and a half months and i tutored the children during that time. Sturgeon: Was that during the summer or winter? Toldrien: It was during the winter. We came out here the end of January and we were here till the end of May. It was great and i just loved it out here. I thought some day i am coming back. In the meantime i got married and had my family. So it took me a long time to get back. A long time indeed...25 plus years, but darned if she didn't get here. The story just gets batter and better, so stay tuned.
" We searched through a number of archives and found no evidence of Marx ever making a similar statement about being "unburdened by what has been." We also reached out to an expert on Marx and will update this post if we receive more information. Until then, we rate this claim as unproven. " So if these folks can't find it, where did Marx make that statement?
Little nuggets of gold abound in these interviews. Love this comment from Mildred explaining Webb's rationale behind the community: Sturgeon: Did you ever expect it (Sun City), to get this big? Toldrien: No and Del Webb didn't either, because i talked to his mother-in-law one day. We were at the laundromat and we were talking about it. She said his plan was to have Sun City go from Grand Ave to Peoria and 103rd to 111th. That was going to be Sun City. His reason for building Sun City was so that many poorer people could not afford country club living and the wealthy could. So he was going to build a community where people who maybe had social security and not much else could come and live in a community like that. That was the reason he started Sun City. When people first moved in i know there was quite a number who all they had was social security. It was a lot different then; the homes were a lot cheaper. Of the five models, ours was the third. Like one and two were the cheaper, then four and five. We added a little bit of extra concrete to the back of ours and our house was only around $9900. That way we were able to pay cash for ours, because after all i felt we were retired we ought to have $10,000 cash in order to retire. Nut a lot of people didn't and i know there were people on social security. But a lot of people were wealthier too. I heard there were even some millionaires there but i didn't know any who were. Everybody was so friendly and nice. I didn't know who the wealthy people were because they sure didn't act like it. Imagine that: Sun City was for people who could not afford a "country club" way of life.
Bill, didn't you always say Del Webb's "vision" for Sun City was never to be a community for the less fortunate. In fact I am searching for those statements right now.
I've always been fascinated by these stories of the first home buyers. Mildred might be one of the more interesting ones. They moved into their Sun City home in June of 1960, about 6 weeks after the first residents moved into the community (last week of April, 1960). There might have been 50-75 homes with people living in them, so clearly, she was amongst the first. Better yet, her story grows in size and scope. In 1978, Mildred decided to move to the brand new Sun City West development which made her a pioneer on both fronts. Here's a quick exchange: Sturgeon: Before you moved in were you worried at all about moving into a place with no community yet? Toldrien: No. That thought never entered my mind either. We had everything there. We knew-well the swimming pool was there. We did come out and swim before we ever moved in because that was available before our homes were available. No, i just never had those feelings. I thought this was going to be great, and it was. Her story is one of believing in the collective power of those living here, getting things done. As i post through pieces of her journey you will see exactly what i mean.
