The PAC - Final Destination

If I remember correctly, we've had Members step-up to the microphone who stated they were professional city planners and engineers etc. and offered their services. Heck, we even had a person who trained Board Members for a living who has offered his services to the Board! Seem's the Board wants nothing to do with training. They're quite happy to simply violate the bylaws and make-up rules as they go!?

Wouldn't it be nice to create a Ad Hoc Committee made-up of our own community members with those who have had life long career experiences? Use them to whittle-down some of the can or can't do's!

Allow the committee to call in vendors on behalf of the RCSC to review some of the Members concerns or suggestions. Give them a limited amount of time to make their report. Or are we going to continue to piss money away on yet another architectural firm only too give the pot another stir so we can start running in circles all over again?

Look, the Long Range Planning Committee does a fairly good job, but they don't have any limits on the time they spend on an issue and they're perpetually re-inventing the wheel!

I believe a committee staffed with former and or current professionals can get the job done without being influenced by personal opinions and agendas?

 

I am sure you are correct. There are probably dozens of retired business owners, CEO's and professional people who would like to give their ideas and be part of the planning process here. The problem I see is that board members seem to have an agenda, and would they be open to ideas other than their own? Even some former board members are pretty adamant about what they think is the right thing to do. Reading through the posts some think they know what will work or not work without the input of professionals.

I truly hope something like that works, however if you do get a group of professionals together and they are shushed by board members they probably won't want to come back.

 

Just remember, Tom, that the line dancing club doesn't like to be displaced to MV when the RCSC Board has its meetings and exchanges. Those are only two days a month they have to change their location, but we have heard complaints many times.

 

But Janet, you're really only talking about scheduling issues and not necessarily changing location!

Is it the end of the world if they had to change days but can still use SD?

 

This just keeps getting funnier and better! But this club, and that club! No wonder all those Alien drones have not made their way here!

 

One of the things that really bothers me is that to this day, we, the Members, do not know whether the auditorium at Mountain View is architecturally, structurally, physically, electrically, a sound building.

The SAC committee asked for this information many times. We never got an answer from Management. I would assume that it must be as the Players just used it for their play and the BFDC used it all summer.

I've also heard that our iconic round building at Lakeview is not "safe."

Wish the Board would address this with Management. Of course, it will probably cost $$ to find out the truth. Everything costs!!

 

I too have heard that? It was my understanding that that is why they moved the Clay Club. The concentrated weight of the kiln's up on the second floor was apparently an issue of concern.

 

Finally! I found what I was looking for. However, I think this thread has moved on so this might not be of interest to you.

The items below were "Plan M."
They are what the SAC committee voted on to move forward and to be presented to the Board.
The Board never presented Plan M to the GM.
Instead, the Board created a presentation called Mountain View Renovation Elements that was presented to the public at a Special Session held at Mountain View on Thursday, January 18th. These "elements" were then given to the GM, and his task was to find an architectural firm. That is how triArc came about.

Marlene Imirzian & Associates Architects | September, 2023

The Mountain View Recreation Center will be renovated and added on to in order to create the spaces necessary to provide for the site priority uses. This will include renovating the existing fitness and restrooms to provide new locker rooms and adding a second level to create a new fitness zone. The existing auditorium would be renovated to be used as a performing arts theater seating approximately 320-340.

· Existing auditorium to be renovated

· Existing showers / fitness to be renovated, add new recreation center above

· Existing mini golf building to remain

· Existing lawn bowling building to remain

· Lawn Bowling to Remain

· Pickleball to Remain

· Pickleball - New Shaded / Vented

· Keep Existing Resort / Aqua Fitness Pool

· Lap / Sport Pool

· Outdoor Spa

· Horseshoes to Remain

 

STONEWALLING: The first step in any renovation vs. build new project is to determine the condition of the existing facility. Management has refused to have an expert do that evaluation, so no one really knows if it is significantly less expensive to renovate than it is to build new. The reserve study may have some information in it on the condition of the building. The Irony of this story is one member received a quote of $5,000 for a full report from a qualified expert. (It is like a home inspection report). Having a master plan could avoid some of this passive aggressive behavior and would require a repair versus replace analysis.

 

If I may weigh in here, Gary and I worked with an expert from Hussey seat Company on retractable seating and 500+ seats were workable and still allowed enough space for Bingo. The wood floor could present an engineering challenge. A very preliminary design was obtained for free. I think we upset some people by us going around the "blockade" to get some factual data.

As I interpret the tea leaves that seem to be falling in various publications, my sense is the biggest push for a standalone theater or PAC is by the Players club and its board supporters. Other performing arts groups are generally satisfied with the space allocated to them.

I am a numbers and data guy, and something about this whole PAC debate does not add up for me. As I understand it, we are considering building a $14M ++ special purpose building primarily because the seats at the Mountainview auditorium are uncomfortable and the Players Club wants significantly more back of the house space. Granted there may be some other uses of this building, but they are currently accommodated or could easily be accommodated by our underutilized spaces elsewhere. In addition, we are considering this very major investment with no idea what it will cost to operate it properly and how much we would have to raise fees to cover these costs. And the Board just approved a five-year budget that did not include any estimate of these additional operating costs. This just does not make sense to me. It is even more nonsensical to me when I consider Sun Dial was specifically designed to host performances and events and the Players Club only needs performance space for 3 plays or 12 performances. The preproduction activities can, in my opinion, be performed in plenty of spaces.

I think Bill P pointed out that we are confusing needs and wants in this whole debate.

There is yet another easily implementable solution to uncomfortable seating. Hussey and other companies make stackable theater style chairs. But before I go there, I am perplexed by the lack of complaints about the uncomfortable seating at Bingo, concerts, chorus events, and other events held at Sun Dial given that they all use the same seats that are used for plays.

Please enlighten me on the factual data supporting this huge expenditure because so far all I have heard are emotional appeals which make no logical sense to me. Isn't the Players club engaging in a hobby of their choosing just like the rest of us?

 

I will say it now, as directly as I can. There is zero need for a performing arts center/theater in Sun City. There’s even less need to spend that kind of money on such a venue, only to satisfy a few egos. Someone obviously has grandiose ideas or ambitions to be a star of some sort. Fine, I support your endeavors, just don’t expect me or this community to pay for them. I am quite sure if a study was conducted about building a $14M theatre in Sun City and how much the respondents are willing to pay in additional fees or assessments for such a venue, the response would be lackadaisical at best. I, for one, don’t support a PAC, especially since there’s such glaring issues needing our immediate attention. The money spent is lost and so should the idea of a not needed theatre. Use Sundial, it will accomplish what is needed. Just my opinion

 

Has anyone considered asking the members a simple question? Does Sun City need a performing arts center and how much more are you, as a paying member of the RCSC, are you willing to pay annually to achieve this goal if you approve?
Instead of allowing a huge financial burden to placed on the community, ask this community if they even want it. Especially with the proposed funding coming from the PIF fund and the community will ultimately be impacted by the costs.
Enough of discussion as to where to put it, first find out if anyone even wants it. I know there were presentations done about where to put it, what the impact would be to the center in question and a preliminary report to the board as to what impact this would have on the particular center.
Not once have I heard or seen any action item for asking for a vote from those of us who will have to pay. Until such time the members are asked if this feature is warranted, I say no more money is to be directed towards this project.

 

Carole we have always agreed on that. NO PAC. The performing arts folks want it. How do we justify pay on $14 mil on a building not one sole here knows if the nest gens will want it. Go look at the centers in SCW. They have two, small but they work. There was a huge uproar on Nextdoor when I mentioned it there. Then folks came out against it same as the libraries. I have said so many times do we NEED it? NO! Do Some WANT it YES. One more time, fix what we have, make this city look nice again, let's see how the housing market goes (it's crap right now), then let's move on.

Do a search of my posts about this. Because it's me I get thrown under the bus or totally ignored.

 

At least one BOD voted to build a PAC. The SAC agreed a PAC should be built. Where were you folks when these decisions were made?

 

I

was being a caregiver for my 91 year old aunt. During these years I have not been able to be involved with RCSC operations. Having the BOD vote for something does not mean the community is informed of such grandiose expenditures.
So sorry for not being on top of board decisions, life got in the way.

 

I just went through some of the 55+ communities available who also have a theater in the neighborhood. I found Robson Communities, which is still very active in the construction of active adult homes. When looking for those that offer a theater in the community, there are very few. Actually I found one Robson Community that offers a community theater and it’s Saddlebrook, just north of Tucson. I find it interesting that if this was an amenity found to be a need in these communities, why are they not being built in every neighborhood? If Robson Community builders saw the value of adding a theater to 55+ communities, I am sure they would include a theater in every neighborhood they built. I use this example because these people are still actively building communities and including amenities that are being sought today by buyers seeking this lifestyle as well as future resale value. Oh don’t forget the $248 monthly fee to live in Saddlebrook.
If a performing arts center was a draw for the 55+ communities, Robson would be putting them in every neighborhood they offer. They don’t.
When looking at future generations of buyers and what they’re seeking, I believe Robson has a good idea of what is going to attract the next generation. The communities offer education opportunities, transportation options within the neighborhood, and shopping local within the community itself. These amenities are not offered in Sun City. The advertising pushes the advantage of this type of community living and nowhere is there a mention of local performing arts.
The Sundial is perfectly available for what Sun City needs for theater presentations. Could Sundial use some updates? Sure, but not to the tune of $14 million dollars.

 

I posted the Alco theater story yesterday here, in part for me because i have read so little about it over the years, and in part for others who probably had no idea it even existed. Located in the La Ronde shopping center, it lasted for 14 years, closing in 1990. Here's one line from the story posted: "No blame to. United Artists; the company is not in business to underwrite a 437-seat theater where some nights no one showed up."

In fairness this was first and foremost a true movie theater. They showed first run movies and charged admission. But, they also used the stage for all kinds of other meetings and gatherings that would be PAC-like. The reality was a for-profit business couldn't survive off the rentals and ticket sales. The article did go on to mention the Sun City Players and how this type of venue might have benefited them.

At some point i will try and dig out more data on the Bell Rec Center plan that included an 1800 seat venue. The Performing Arts Theater was to be on the corner of 99th and Bell Road (before there was a shopping center built on the site). John Meeker had been meeting with 18 different groups of potential users to try and insure maximizing space utilization.

When the Bell Recreation Center had a 5 million dollar overrun on it's budget, the Theater was scrapped. Newspaper reports suggested the RCSC was relieved with that decision; the costs for owning and running it would have been overwhelming. Interesting to note, with the theater on the corner, and with that size, most of the land (if not all) that became the shopping center would have become parking for the venue; 1800 seats is huge.

I've never been to a single movie showing the RCSC does twice a month. From what i read or hear, some folks still go. They used to offer popcorn, but after the pandemic i think they just tell those coming to bring their own snacks. For a long time the movies were older, while these days they aren't first run movies, they are newer. Curious, has anyone gone of late?

My best guess is this is a trend that will fade/die a natural death. With all of the options available for streaming movies at home or on your phone, it simply will be like the Alco theater with virtually no one in attendance. I suspect the social gathering aspect for some has been a factor as much as watching a movie at one of the centers. Honestly, i'm surprised they restarted it after covid19.

I am ambivalent about a PAC. I understand the need (want?) for comfortable seating. I know the history of the Players and it has roots all the way back to 1960. I also believe the amateur thespians should have a decent comfortable venue to perform in. It's why i got so excited when Marlene drilled down into Plan M and suggested a modest renovation at the MV auditorium.

I couldn't help but recall the unveiling of the Taj Mahal that was foisted on us shortly after Karen McAdam was fired and the board shoved through the massive expenditure (40-50 million dollars-projected) on a second reading in June of 2021. If memory serves me, once they moved the building we were treated to the most grandiose theater design including green room, alternative performance/practice area, two or three story soaring heights, orchestra pit, large entry/foyer and limited bathrooms (they claimed they could add more later).

But wait, there's more. At one point there was to be a basketball gymnasium, fitness area adjacent to it with connecting entryways. And then it got even better as the board added phase 3; a two story indoor pickleball building, new lawn bowling green and an ADA compatible mini-golf course. Oops, almost forgetting the phase 2, twin pools that would be included.

Little things like county parking restrictions and water retention areas were ignored in the flawed and fatal design that doomed the center to this ongoing nightmare. The reality is all of this should have been done before they ever built the Grand Center. Not even going there who's wants were met.

Now we are about to embark on a whole new journey of town hall meetings with the architects. Gathering users of the venue, they will be asked to tell us what they want. I can hardly wait to hear they want their pool area redone, that they need more pickleball courts, that the Sun City Players should have comfortable seating and an adequate stage and storage area, some sort of fitness area and let's not forget the latest...an indoor dog arena.

But alas, we'll go through the exercise again. We'll be told the lawn bowlers cannot possibly lose a green. The tennis players will argue for a second venue besides Bell. Hopefully the pballers will have realized the folly of indoor climate controlled courts. If memory serves me, we have gotten away from adding a second sports pool. We'll see.

It's almost mind-numbing to try and recall and recant the misery of these failed efforts. And, the biggest question (as noted above) has anyone even bothered to see if the MV auditorium can be salvaged and if so, at what cost?

 

When I sat on the Board, I had the same thought. "Let's just ask the entire Membership through a letter sent to all addresses the RCSC has if they want a PAC. " At that time, I mentioned this to Bill P. I was tired of all the bickering back and forth and thought we'll take it to the Members.

If my memory is correct, Bill simply stated that if they asked the entire Membership, the answer would be No. He went on to add that the entire Membership is pretty conservative and most likely would vote "No" on most anything regarding monies spent.

Chime in, Bill, if I have that conversation wrong.

 

Spot on Jean and i have said the PIF was built so as to avoid those types of votes. The way it was created was to give more latitude to the board. But of course, that was back (1999) when committees recommendations were valued, rather than de-valued or ignored.

I still like the idea of discretionary spending on remodeling projects. Obviously done with ample input from the membership and driven by committee recommendations. The one point of contention would be when it comes to adding amenities and the related costs, we may want to consider a vote of the membership...like they did on the offer to buy the Sun Bowl from DEVCO in 1981.

To be clear, it has not always been the case. Meeker had been trying to get the RCSC to take the golf courses off his hands for years. The board was reluctant because of the potential of them becoming a money pit (nailed that didn't they), but finally relented when the offer became too good to refuse. They did an 18 month trial run with the ultimate ownership taking place for 7 of the 8 courses (Quail Run was a year later) in 1977. The deal was consummated for "$10 and a cup of coffee." It was even better than that with all of the equipment and a large cash subsidy thrown in for good measure.

In the end, the RCSC owning them was better than outsiders owning them and running them as a profit business. There was no vote of the membership and had there been i would have hated to see the outcome. I highly doubt we would have owned them.

Just my opinion.

 

I'm right there with you, Bill. That's why the back page of the "annual January edition of the Sun City AZ Update mailed to Members" really made me see red. All I thought was, here we go again! Yes, they (triArc) have given us three ways to reach their survey: in person, on a website, and if one knows how to use a QR code. But....have you seen the survey? Maybe experts on survey writing would say that these questions will definitely help decide the outcome of the PAC, but I would have a hard time answering them, and I'm pretty familiar with the subject. And once again, the in-person session doesn't include hours for those who work. I can't believe we're doing this once again.