Blame Del Webb...

This past several months of golfers whining about how unfair life is because they and 10 pin bowlers have to pay has gotten really old. Yesterday was the topper as i sat in the golf advisory meeting and heard the tired old refrain: "Why do we have to pay when no one else does?"

As a Sun City historian and also one who follows age restricted communities more closely than most...here's the answer..."Blame Del Webb." It all started here in Sun City Arizona on January 1, 1960. There was a rec center, 9 holes of golf with pro shop, shopping center, the Hiway House motor inn with bar and a restaurant and 5 model homes.

Buyers started moving into New Life Unit 1 (around Community Center/Oakmont) in may of 1960. The interesting footnote is membership to use the center was optional. It was the ultimate "pay to play." Those who paid the $40 per lot assessment could use it, those that didn't couldn't. 60% of the buyers joined, 40% didn't.

It was a financial nightmare for DEVCO as they were subsidizing everything. As they were nearing the end of 1960, sales were so strong, they had immediately started planning the second rec center, Town Hall (Fairway).

By then they had also started building New Life Unit 2 and included with the sale of every home was signing a facilities a agreement. In fact, all of you reading this have signed a similar document when you purchased your Sun City home. Oddly enough, with the pay to play gone, the rate for joining dropped to $12 per person and it stayed per person until 2003 (when they went back to a straight lot assessment).

The mess in New Life Unit 1 remained until 1967. Dues were optional for those first home buyers. Some paid, some didn't. The bigger problem was those living around Community Center, even if they had paid their fees, were not allowed to use Town Hall except as a guest or on rare admissions approved by the Town Hall Association.

In either case, those who voluntarily paid or who had signed a facilities agreement, had full use of all of the amenities without any further charges, other than a small fee to join a club. Pools, the smattering of exercise bikes had no club dues. It was all covered with your yearly rec fee payment.

The lone exception was for the golf courses. From opening day, DEVCO used them as a marketing tool and allowed non-residents to use them, as well as the non paying members from New Life Unit 1. Those early rates were $2.85 on weekdays and $3.25 on weekends. There were frequently complaints about the number of tee times sold to non-residents.

In 1971, the Lakeview Bowling alleys opened. DEVCO/Webb decided this sport, just like golf, needed to be charged additional monies to play at them. Neither golf nor 10 pin bowling were ever part of the amenities included under the facilities agreement. NEVER.

As DEVCO opened the various phases around the community, the recreation centers were deeded (no charge) to the community/members (through the RCSC). The golf courses were different. There was a fear that if they (bowling centers and golf courses) were owned by the RCSC, they could become money pits that would drag the membership down and drive the cost to live here up.

In 1975 an 18 month agreement was negotiated between DEVCO and the RCSC. Included in the potential purchase agreement was an obligation for all outside play to be gone by June of 1977. The commitment also included the RCSC to maintain them as golf courses for 25 years with 10 year renewal periods thereafter. There was also language stating they would be revenue neutral. And, any expenses associated with the two lakes would be split 50/50 between golf and the RCSC. The cost to the RCSC was $10 and a cup of coffee, plus they got some cash and a lot of equipment. DEVCO just wanted out from under them and the RCSC was the most likely (and right) buyers.

I've read the agreement (other than the 50 pages of legal descriptions of each of the first 7 courses, Quail Run came along a year later). I have not seen the agreement to take ownership of the two bowling alleys but have been told the same commitment to be revenue neutral exists.

Only a handful of people have ever read the document. When i was on the board i asked the general manager to see it and she told me there was no way she could put her hands on it as we had storage units all around with these kinds of documents. I found a copy a year ago at the museum and we can debate what is says or if it really means anything, but that's folly.

We already know, golf has been and will be subsidized for years to come. The real question is: How much should the vast majority of RCSC members who don't golf be paying so a small minority population consisting of 2100 golfers, be supported to insure they have the cheapest golf in the country? To be even more blunt, the largest portion of golfers in Sun City are daily walk-on players and they are really subsidizing those pass buyers, plus their PIF money and yearly lot assessments are going to fund golf as well.

Many of you already know that and a lot of you don't care. You just want anyone else but you to pay for it. Call it human nature, call it greed, call it whatever you want, but after yesterday, we see exactly what their perception of fair is. Hell, i even spoke up in spite of the crowds makeup of all golfers and told them this: I can live with subsidizing Sun City members, where i draw the line is when you are asking me (and all of us who don't golf or worse yet pay the daily walk-on rate) that we should be subsidizing non-residents golfers...and we are.

The argument is if we don't get their money (roughly 400k last year), our rates might/will go up. Then when they threw in "how nice those outsiders are," and that "they were their friends," i had to speak up. Are you freaking kidding me? What about the 4700 plus RCSC members who pay the walk-on rate of $39 a round...aren't they nice people too? Aren't they your friends as well?

Here's the bottom line: Del Webb/DEVCO set the rules for age restricted communities when Sun City opened. Every community after that followed suit. Amenities are included in whatever the yearly assessment is; virtually everyone of them is way more than us.

All of them with golf courses have rates for members two and three times what ours are. None of them are marketing outsiders to come and golf cheaper than their member/owners do. There is a rare exception and that's in the Villages of Florida. Executive golf courses have "free play for members." Regulation courses charge real golf rates, but honestly there's a ton of short courses.

Of course that "free golf" comes with a $189 a month rec fee which equates to almost $2300 per year and that's before we eve start talking about their CDD fees (on many homes) and property taxes that make ours look cheap.

No other age restricted community has user fees for amenities. No other age restricted community has pay to play. Everyone else that has golf courses charge WAY more than we do. The idea or suggestion we should be doing something different is some really crazy crap.

 

I'm no golfer and all this still confuses me, but I will say this; I do believe the cost to play golf should be increased, but as long as the increase is still the cheapest game in town the golfers will still continue to come to Sun City!

 

i know this stuff gets confusing when we talk numbers, but let's have some fun with them and see if you can spot the difference here:
Yesterday we saw the presentation where we were told how many golfers there are in Sun City. It didn't make much sense because for the last year plus we were told there were 4200 and yesterday we saw it had exploded to 6,997. After deleting non-resident pass holders and staff players, we come up with this total that played at least once during the year:
Total members, cardholders who played in 2022. 6593
Total surcharge buyers as of June 2023: 1617
Total full play pass buyers as of June 2023: 485

What those numbers tell us is that there are 2102 pass buyers compared to 4491 daily walk-on players. I can do the math for you but let's just say it's more than twice as many walk-on players.

Then lets consider the latest proposal recommended yesterday:
Full play pass goes from: $1550 to $18oo.
Surcharge increases from: $800 to $900 and the walk-on rate from $5 to $6 (summer) and $7 to $8 (high season).
Daily walk-on rate winter: $35 to $39.
The two passes got a 16% increase while the walk-on was only 11%.

I know this will confuse you even more but let's see if anyone can pick out the difference in the comparison below:
Sun City walk-on winter with increase: $39. Sun City West walk-on winter: $42.
Sun City full play pass with increase: $1800. Sun City West full play: $3600.
Sun City surcharge with increase: $900 and $8 (Nov-April). $6 off months.
Sun City West surcharge (Kachina card): $895 and $23 (Nov-April). $11 average rate off months.

For both the surcharge in Sun City and the Kachina in Sun City West a golfer pays the additional rate every time they play and based on the time of year.

I showed the totals on the number of golfers and the fact we have more than twice as many walk-on golfers as pass buyers. I don't know what the mix is in Sun City West but i do know they have two policies they follow in their bylaws regarding golf, The GM and the director of golf can set the rates with these two caveats: Residents get first option at tee times (ahead of non-residents) and they can't sell a round of golf to outsiders cheaper than the sell to members. It is also interesting to note, they get close to 25% of their revenue from non-residents.

When i left the meeting Thursday i was wondering how many of the golfers in the meeting were walk=on players and how many were full play pass and surcharge buyers. Anyone see why i was curious? I know it's confusing and i personally hate numbers, but what they do tell is a story. What's the story here?

 

All right I'm going to chime in I don't give a shit if you agree with me or not but half of you don't know what the hell you're talking about. You got outside people buying golf passes that should never have golf carts attached to them ever they should have to pay for it. How many of these players from outside that are buying passes or playing every single effing day that's the question. Now what residences and members buy golf passes who cares how many rounds they play it's their privilege whether they play one or five or every day they live here they play here. Oh your song and dance is old you got to put a meter on the members to see how many rounds they can play a week you're all fools you haven't lived here long enough to understand anything and you listen to your leader Bill who hates golf always has and always will. Every lawn bowl in Sun City should be bulldozed ASAP. And every single person that comes from outside of Sun City to play lawn bowling should be charged the minimum of $10,000 for use fee and maintenance fee and no I'm not penalizing your Canadian friends because I have some Canadian friends also and they think a handful of you have gotten out of control again you need to get your asses out be volunteers learn what the communities about I quit spending 85 hours on here listening to Bill Pearson rat about everything he hates about Sun City. With him this has been going on for many many years he can't get along with anybody who says anything negative against what he thinks which includes previous general managers are board what he was on. Does anybody get the picture yet. You folks are going after the members and that's a cardinal sin and the new board coming in better be aware that they'll be gone just as quickly as they were put on. I used to be a lap swimmer we want to get down to nuts and bolts why couldn't I swim when the women had their aerobics classes at all the pools? I don't see anybody whining about that we used to complain about it they told us to shut the f up because they have more people that are members than any group in Sun city. So why don't you go after them you have hundreds of people coming after you do we charge the aerobics people by use? You newbies forget about mountain view again go out and see what the community was built how it was built. Go out and meet your neighbors put your computer away for a while go enjoy life everybody's been waiting for their favorite amenity for many many years get in line! A rude awakening is coming your way folks hope I live long enough to see it.

 

I didn't really expect anyone to get it. Golf rates are a lot like growing up with Latin spoken in a Catholic church; it simply made no sense.

I always intended to do it this way:
1). Full play pass cost for 100 rounds in Sun City: $18 per round/$1800 for the year.
Full play pass cost for 100 rounds in Sun City West: $36 per round/$3600 for the year.

2). Surcharge pass for 100 rounds in Sun City: $17 per round/$1700 for the year.
Surcharge pass for 100 rounds in Sun City West: $31.95 per round/$3195 for the year.

3). Daily walk-on rate for 50 rounds in Sun City: $39 per round/$1950 for the year.
Gaily walk-on rate for 50 rounds in Sun City West: $42 per round/$2100 for the year.

What becomes immediately clear is all of the passes in Sun City are roughly half the cost of Sun City West. The argument always is "their courses are nicer." They are, but then how does one explain the walk-on rate in Sun City West not being in double? The answer is painfully obvious; those making the decisions in West tried to provide some measure of equality when setting rates. Those in Sun City wanted to insure the small minority (2100) were taken care of first. It's compounded even further when you look at small group bookings and the fact we allow non-residents preferential tee times over those not in small groups.

This started out as an exercise to help non-golfers understand some of the challenges facing the community when you factor golf into the mix of other issues. It's not easy as our (Sun City's) direction has been set by rewarding those who play the most. In fact, it has compounded the problem as we have become enamored with "cheap golf." So much so that the effort to try and increase rates was met by skepticism that any increase was even warranted. Which then amplified into cries of "make everyone else pay." All of which was why i gave you the history lesson above and why i pointed out, this is how everyone else does it...they all followed the pattern set by Del Webb's Sun City.

As i said to a golfer i banter with, i lived in a work world where members voting was how we functioned. The board is going to vote whatever they are going to vote on and my life won't be impacted one way or the other. I'm not a golfer, i am concerned about our future and the current golf structure is not sustainable because of what at least one current board member is telling them and more importantly his vision for the community.

In 2024 i expect the breakeven cost for a round of golf to be in the $24 range. When you look at the numbers posted above, one category covers it (walk-on daily) and the other two (surcharge and full play), don't even come close. By the way the full play pass numbers aren't realistic because golfers don't buy the FP pass if they only play 100 rounds. They buy that pass when they want to play 150, 200, 250 and 300 rounds. You can do the math but the fact is the more they play the less they pay per round. It's gets worse though, because every round they play, is a round that can't be sold for a rate that covers the RCSC's expenses.

Which is really what all of this is about. We know from the presentation the other day, golf has never made money and given what will be passed, we'll be in the red next year and for years to come. We also know our courses need some work and it will be expensive. It is the perfect storm and it has become worse as one director has flat out told us (and golfers) HE WANTS TO DISSOLVE THE PIF AS IT SITS, ROLL ALL OF THEIR ASSETS INTO A GENERAL LEDGER ACCOUNT AND THEN SPEND TEN MILLION DOLLARS TO RESTORE THE COURSES TO THEIR PRISTINE CONDITION. IT MIGHT BE THE DUMBEST IDEA I HAVE EVER SEEN OR HEARD.

You don't have to take my word for it, he says it in his promotional material. His contention is Sun City is a golfing community first and foremost and as such that should be our primary focus. After sitting in the golf advisory meeting and listening i've come to understand where they are headed...AN ANYBODY BUT ME MINDSET. If the numbers tell you nothing else, they show you how they think and now they have their "champion" who will say or do anything to reach his goal. That's not how Sun City was built or even close to why we were successful.

 

Just a quick response to say what...i hate Sun City...really? But he's entitled to his opinions, flawed as they are.

Let's cut to the quick about his nonsense. There are 2100 golfers who have benefited from the current structure. Sorry brother, that's the number and it includes every member and privilege card holder. The daily walk-on golfers (nearly 4500 of them) have been used to subsidize pass buyers. The total membership (including members and cardholders) is somewhere close to 35,000 and they've all been used to subsidize those 2100 pass holders.

After the presentation the other day, we know golf showed a profit once since 2009. We also heard Director Darbut tell us the PIF has spent 37 million dollars on golf since it began, he didn't include the 4 million dollars due for the lake relining, so now we are at 41 million. We also saw the 9 million dollar deficit since 2009. It's too bad they didn't go back further, because golf has been a losing proposition for nearly as long as we have owned the courses. We know next year, even with the increases, we will be looking at a minimum 500k loss from capital investments for golf. And, lets not forget to throw in the 20-30-40 million dollar PIF hit for conversion to desert landscaping starting in 2025.

Here's the beauty of knowing these numbers say what...i'm perfectly fine supporting/subsidizing our golf courses. They were, are and always will be a wonderful addition to this community. Where it all breaks down is when you think it's okay to subsidize a golfer who doesn't live here and in fact takes tee times from members. Where it all breaks down is when golfers thinks it's cool to brag to their golfing buddies they play for $5 or $10 a round then we tell the vast majority of golfers they should be paying $39 a round.

Where it gets really, REALLY nuts is when a director tells members we should get rid of the smartest decision ever made by the RCSC so he has his own little personal piggy bank to spend on his one interest; golf.

Hope that helps clear the air say what.

 

You know GD well I don't think outsider should get cheaper rates but the numbers you throw out saying cheap golf what if these outside people buy a pass say for $1,800 just as an example only what if that individual when he plays one round of golf per week and is only here 3/4 of a year. I don't have a calculator handy and I don't know if my math is as good as it should be but 1800 / 30 or 35 equals $50 odd dollars per round this is only used as it is an example now if we charge all these outsiders say $15 to rent a cart every time they play that's going to be cool about $65 around. Now let's all do the math here we need to charge these outsiders 15 bucks per person to rent a cart. That equals $30 for two players to ride together nobody and I mean nobody including members should ever get carts for free never ever ever and I've said this all along this is how we make a good profit to help take care of the water issue that we have in the short term and if any board members on here can grasp what I'm trying to say do it. Outsiders need to pay 15 bucks per person to ride in a golf cart. Also unless you have a Sun City driver's license you pay full price for everything always. As I've said before and many times and some folks just can't grasp what I say but when you have a husband and wife own a house that have lived in Sun City full and part-time for many many years and only one person is on the deed both people regardless if they're married and they live there for many many many years only one of them can have a member card the other person gets a privilege card which makes them a second class citizen in Sun City the way it's looked at now and has been for decades. So if you have a husband and wife that both live the same place at the same driver's license and one is on the deed and the other one isn't one is considered a second class citizen by the gods of Sun City which means Bill also looks at it this way. Many many years ago when people bought properties and only one person could come down and do the paperwork and most of the time it was the man in the family the woman got left off. For years and years and years if you wanted to change the deed and put your name on the deed along with the husband Sun City would double dip you to do it you would be penalized and that's why there's more people than you can imagine living in Sun City with this dilemma and when someone dies and their names not on the deed of course and they've lived there for many many years and their address is been on their driver's license for many many years married to the man or woman for many many years and their mail has come to that address for many many years because they're married but their second class citizens and get double dipped again when you transfer the deed. Want to complain about something there's something we can complain about, and it's wrong that these men and women that have lived here forever full and part-time both who own property with only one person on a deed because maybe they inherited something and someone died and only one could come down and do the paperwork or bought the house down here and only one could come down and do the paperwork whatever the case may be the second hand citizen and always will be in the eyes of many people the board and especially Bill. Bill knows the rules he was on the board he knows how things work. I don't know if the rate is different for a person on the deed who's considered a member who lives at the same address as the person considered a second class citizen who has a privilege card who lives at the same address is different. It shouldn't be but the board is always considered these people second class citizens and actually I know of a few cases that they've been treated differently than a regular member even though they're married to the member who owns the property whose name is on the deed but is the husband or wife whose name is not on the deed who has a privilege card and is considered a second class citizen. I wrote this a year ago or 9 months ago hell I don't know what day it is half the time but this I remember writing. I'll get back to the other point which is anybody and I mean anybody who does not have a driver's license or proof of mail coming to a Sun City address should have to pay the highest rate possible and never ever ever get a free golf cart and never ever ever get discounted in any way for anything in Sun City ever. And I hate to change the subject on this rant but condolences we lost Gary Cotton which I read in the paper. Although Gary and I did not agree on some things over the years lol, he was a smart man and had a good heart and he will be dearly missed!!

 

Damn, say what, three things we can agree on: Gary Cotten was a good and decent man and will be missed. I know how you feel about outsiders paying more than members when they step on our courses. The change they are making for the full play non-resident pass is good, it still doesn't go far enough but it's a start (the new deal proposed will be $3250, no golf car). Again, another topic we are 100% in agreement on. Finally, there's been some butt ugly screw jobs on long time home/owners they are forcing to pay another PIF. It's crap and when i hear about it i try and help them.

I don't hate golf, i often hated how poorly i played the game. I could drive a 400 yard par 4's and still bogie the damn hole. In fact, say what, i said it at the meeting the other day i have no problem subsidizing golf as long as we know how much it is and the golfers are paying their fair share.

 

Here's what I don't get; sure, the bylaws say that if the title changes you're required to pay a PIF fee. But the bylaws also state that "(i) pursuant to any deed, contract for sale, will or other instrument or document transferring an interest in such property, so long as the original payor of the PIF assessment no longer retains a majority (50% or more) ownership interest in the Property;"

So what if you change the deed to add your wife. The husband still has that 50% ownership interest in the property as stated in the bylaws! So why the need to double-dip and pay another PIF?

It's simply highway robbery and perhaps those working in Cardholder Services should be wearing masks, and not for Covid!

 

So let's cut to the chase and stop dancing around the inevitable.

If you attended the October 9th Member/Board Exchange and picked-up the flier with the 7 candidates running for the board you will read one of Jeff Darbut's stated goals is: "Remove the 2017 restrictions on the use of Preservation and Improvement Funds to allow maintenance capital expenditures which will prevent increases to the Annual Assessment Fee."

 

This issue was dead in the water following the budget and finance committee meeting where it was voted down 8 to 1. Unfortunately Director Darbut won't let it die and suddenly 4 of the 7 board candidates are golfers. Nothing illegal about that, when i was on the RCSC board, 6 of them loved golf. That's when we decided we needed to spend a small fortune from PIF rebuilding our courses. Unfortunately it came at the expense of a lot of areas that needed it as well.

I know folks wonder why i post about golf and the rates and data regarding the game. The answer is obvious; if you have no interest (which is about 80% of the Sun City population), it's all just Greek to them. In fact, if you talk to some golfers, they will tell you it's the most important game in town. It's not and it never has been and never will be. We've just been willing to invest an inordinate amount of our resources towards it.

There's nothing wrong with investing in our future and golf is and will continue to be a part of it. The question is always this: How much is enough? How much is too much?

 

Well,... helps me decide who I won't be voting for!

 

I love golf! Many of my closest friends are people I spent time with on the golf course. I continue to play golf in my 70's and hope I can continue for many years. Having said that, I think RCSC has to change the way that golf is funded. It's the people who play who should shoulder most of the expenses which hasn't been the case for many years. Other RCSC Members shouldn't have to pick up a large portion of the bill, especially when the other facilities need improvements.

I predict that Members will come out in droves if the Board of Directors tries to move PIF monies to fund other general operating and capital expenditures budget. If that would happen, I hope the Membership would have some bylaws changes on the ballot for the November Membership meeting addressing the original purpose of PIF. Fortunately the quorum was recently reduced to 500 Members present or proxies. If that isn't successful, the bylaws now allow signatures on recall elections for Directors to be gathered on RCSC properties. Maybe our work on the Bylaws committee wasn't for naught after all!

 

There is no rational reason to remove the restriction on the PIF fee. It was a brilliant decision by the previous Board that implemented the fee. Ask yourself - where would SC be without it? If anyone believes for a single nanosecond that creating a single fund makes sense, I've got a couple of bridges to sell.

Members have been complaining about lack of transparency for how long? We're finally making progress. Just think for a moment about one big pot of money, add a Board with a majority of single interests (name any - it doesn't matter) and what happens? If anyone doesn't think RCSC has problems making decisions about project spending now, think about how it might work under a single fund "free for all." I shudder to think.

Any changes to PIF should be a non-starter.

 

This was posted on Facebook:
AJeffrey Darbut

There are seven candidates for 4 open Board seats. I believe these five candidates meet your requirements:
Ron Kupinski
Jeffrey Darbut
James Rough
Preston Kise
James McCarty

He only excluded Anita Borski and Connie Jo Richtmyre from the Darbut stable of endorsed candidates. They have my vote! If only I could give each two of my four votes…

 

Imagine the fun that can be had with the PIF funds by a "single interest" majority on the board that is backed by a "single interest " quorum.

 

It truly is daunting to think we could be on the verge of going backwards. This coming election will be the defining moment in Sun City's long and storied history. While serving on the RCSC board from 2012-2014, there were 6 avid golfers and a general manager who declared golf was our future. She literally told the long range planning committee they had 25% of the PIF budget and the remaining 75% was off limits, it was going towards golf.

What's so depressing is we just had a presentation at the golf advisory meeting where those in attendance were told how much the RCSC had invested in golf. We already know 2024 will be an expensive year for all of us, but at least one director has put together a slate to insure he can fulfill his vision of massive increases/improvements into our golf courses. He's not being shy or coy, he's just telling folks, all that matters is golf, everything else is secondary.

 

Jeff must have not heard the rumor that anyone voting for such a change to the PIF would be subject to a recall petition.

 

I think the first best solution would be to not re-elect Mr. Darbut to the board which will send an important message to any of those others who he has endorsed and got elected!

When it breaks down to only two options, support golf or support the future existence and prosperity of Sun City I think we know who will win.

If golf becomes such a financial burden then perhaps it's time to think about doing something else with that green space?

 

I would vote for something else for the green space even if golf doesn’t continue to be a money pit. Responders in ASU survey overwhelmingly want to see more walking/biking trails. Follow the data they say, and that is what was said. Even more so than golf or pickleball.