The bastards did it!

FYI...they wouldn't know unanimous consent if it bit them in the ass. No idea if they went off and held a meeting and if they did, they should cloister themselves in a room and try and figure why members are so angry. Don't hold your breath.

You won't get any flack for your take on the meeting SCR, just wished you had hung around. It got better. I refuse to judge crowd size, i'm almost always wrong unless i count the chairs and then the empty seats. They did run out of agenda's so apparently the crowd was larger than they anticipated. You are spot on regarding this point: they must not want to hear from us. That of unto itself is disheartening.

I will be curious to see if they have the balls to post the shitshow. The fact they went running off the stage doesn't speak well of or for them. I would personally be embarrassed and had i been a board member i would not have left but stayed and talked to people in the room, at the very least.

Finally, the shining light in the ordeal is no one was arrested or issued a citation. There were threats and at one point the suggestion was made people would be arrested. As i pointed out to one of the off-duty cops, that would have been a "viral" moment as some poor old lady was cuffed and dragged from the building for a sign that said "I support Karen."

Nearly 20 years living here and this was easily the most interesting moment to date. Always look for the bright side.

 

Thanks 3ck. I'v posted this for years. My knowledge of the history of this community only reinforced how strongly i feel about it. Sadly what we saw today was the corporation before community. That's not how we were built or why we were successful. And, so we are clear, the community came before the corporation and in fact the corporation was built solely to serve the community. Too bad so many board members don't understand that simple premise.

 

My friend who understands parliamentary law and Robert's Rules said the same thing. The problem is they apparently don't care about the rules or whether they live with or within them. That was why they wanted to change their By-laws, so they could do what they want. Let's be blunt, rules are for us, you know, the cardholders.

I had an old friend come up and ask me after the meeting if what they did to Karen was legal and if it wasn't, how could they swear someone in to take her place. I said, no i don't think it was legal, but so what? Who is going to hold them accountable for their actions...whether they are legal or not. The remedy is for Karen to hire an attorney and sue them to find out. I wouldn't if i were her, i would simply pick up another packet and get re-elected. It's way cheaper and far less stress.

The point here is; when do they follow their own rules? For example, why were signs not allowed? Is it in the R&R's? Did the president just make it up that morning? The last time i looked they were agonizing over serious shit like the length of a pool noodle, a guy having a secret extra ball in his pocket to use on mini-golf and the width of golf car tires on the golf course. SCR is spot on right, they will for sure try and pass a motion on signs in the centers, do you think they will have three readings?

The simple reality is they have never had any serious push back. The minute they do, they run for the back doors. It's simply a bad look guys.

 

Holy shit show Batman! How did we come to elect such cowards, clowns and arrogant people to lead such a beautiful community? We better get our butts in gear here people, we all need to be a part of this community like Bill was speaking about at the after "shit show" meeting. I'm all in, I'm going to do whatever it takes to be an active participant. If I were currently a board member I would be so embarrassed about today's actions I wouldn't want to show my face ever again on that stage. Shameful.

 

I doubt you will see today's meeting on the RCSC's YouTube site. They don't want the Members to see their cowardness or be able to use that video in the future. I will be extremely surprised to see it show up on the RCSC website. It exposes their disfunction!

If life was fair we would be able to file our grievances in an incident report charging the Board and Chair of violating their oath of office by not complying with their own Bylaws and corporate documents, but you know how far that would go! About as far as the incident report filed again Director Ege for dropping the F-bomb 5 times at Director McAdam!!! She never even received an apology let alone a reprimand to Director Ege?

Nobody ever said Life was fair and if this latest episode by the Board doesn't show it, nothing will. We will continue to see Directors terminated for not going-along to get-along unless something changes, but when you're dealing with such a tyrannical dictatorship who won't even listen to your point of view, just shut-up and pay your annual assessment, we're in a very steep downward slide with no real signs of recovery!

What a disappointing turnout today. People will only start giving a shit when it's far too late to do anything.....and we're almost there!

But you know what they say, "You get the government that you deserve." That's what happens when you do nothing!

 

Hey gang, i know there are lots of folks who recorded video of the meeting today and for sure, certain exchanges with various people. I'm wondering if anyone took an actual video of the opening of the meeting, starting with the pledge of allegiance, the swearing in of the new director and as soon as that was done the president shut down the meeting wand walked off. I suspect FYI is right and that video by the RCSC will never see the light of day. If so, it can be posted on this site or on the Support Karen McAdam Facebook page.

 

We've now exploded past 16,000 reads in less than 48 hours. Suffice to say, lots of folks following the thread.

I've had some time to process what happened yesterday. I wrote last week, the worst thing the board could do would be to walk off the stage and leave themselves looking both foolish and inept. Guess they didn't like my advice. Like i said to the crowd yesterday, my time on the board was highlighted by the fact it was a setting where good ideas went to die.

I've written before on these pages of the most tumultuous time in the RCSC's history; back in 1981 and 1982, shortly after DEVCO pulled out of Sun City, there was an internal struggle like at no other time. It got so contentious, so ugly the board decided to close the meetings and you could only get in was by applying for admission. Suffice to say, that went over like a fart in church and was quickly dropped. That fight ended in a recall of the president and vice president. However, at no time, was a board member fired.

The board's decision, actually the presidents decision, to walk off the stage ranks right up there in infamy. It was a woeful display of ignorance and a clear message to those in the room, they don't care what you think. I'm not trying to be unkind here, simply stating the reality of where we have gone to. I said to the gm when they walked off, this is what happens when you strip members of their rights and rewrite the documents. She looked at me and said, "I didn't do that, it happened before my time here."

Are you freaking kidding me? The change in the quorum happened in 2009. The change to an annual meeting happened after that while i was on the board. I agreed to it because i knew we were never going to get 1250 people at a quarterly meeting so my hope was we could with an annual meeting. I also had the silly notion that when board members saw we wouldn't get a quorum at an annual meeting they would quickly reduce it to 400 or 500. I was wrong on all accounts.

To be honest, i never ever thought we would be watching board members fire other board members because they didn't fit in, buy into what they were pushing. It saddens me we are where we are. I had hoped yesterday we would see the board willing to listen to the members (owners) and try and find some resolve. That is what mature, intelligent adults do. I guess when you spend your entire work life telling young kids and their teachers how to act and if they don't you punish them, it becomes your modus operandi.

 

It should go both places, and on YouTube too -- so newspapers can link to it, so it can be viewed by the Corporation Commission, viewed by people thinking of moving here so they know what they're really getting themselves into -- so the world can see what a community that doesn't adhere to T33 can become.

I was thinking of the old saying "Things get worse before they get better." It's a fallacy. Things get worse UNTIL they get better or die." SC's been dying for several decades now. Sure, we have new/remodeled Rec Centers, added facilities for new clubs and sports, and poured money into the dying ones. But we've lost a sense of community. That's due to many factors, but more than a little of it rests squarely on the RCSC for not encouraging member participation in it's governance.

The next decade or two will become extremely challenging for the RCSC as it faces longer/hotter summers and the water shortages/regulations that will require significant capital expense to maintain golf, pools, outdoor activities. WE need to elect a board with the attitude and skills necessary to face these upcoming challenges. A board that can make tough decisions -- especially about the cost/benefit future of golf. And a board that keeps the community fully informed and involved, which it hasn't for years. For example...

The pitiful turnout I saw yesterday bolstered my beliefs that 1)the members who actually care about SC don't believe their efforts and opinions matter so why bother getting involved, 2)the RCSC wants to keep us in the dark as much as possible, and 3)many people fear getting involved will incur repercussions. What a sad f'ing state of affairs WE've let SC become.

 

Their are many different rules and opinions on what or how many members constitute a quorum. My favorite one is the one that states a quorum should be set to a number that you can reasonably expect to show up!

If the quorum is set too low and the Members start screwing with the Bylaws or making other ridiculous rules, it becomes easier, because you need fewer, to get more Members to show up and correct any bad decisions!

I would think a quorum of 400 to 500 would be a fair and reasonable number, but that's just my opinion!

 

Wow, good on them for posting the video of the meeting. Here is the link for the RCSC youtube channel second column down, you can watch it for yourselves.

So we are clear. there were maybe 30 or 40 signs in the crowd. When the off-duty officers asked people not to display them the folks behind the effort told people to keep them down. One person, ONE PERSON, didn't get the message and apparently held up her sign. I was sitting in the back and didn't see it but people told me that was the case. Yikes. One sign shut the meeting down. When the officer asked me if i was behind it all, i said no but in my previous life i held many a sign and had more encounters in group efforts of activism and that signs had been deemed allowable under the First Amendment regarding free speech. He didn't want to have that debate/discussion and went off to find someone more pliable.

I've written earlier, the cops were good about it and those with the signs made every effort to comply with the RCSC request, even though the property isn't posted "no signs allowed," nor is their anything in the documents preventing them. So i guess we should just assume they can make up rules as they go along. Why not after everything else they have done?

IC makes some interesting points that i will touch on later in detail. I am also going to post a photo below that lets me people know what activism actually looked like in the 1980's.

 

This is from a time when activism was alive and well in Sun City and why we became the most unique community of its kind:

 

I think they posted it because their video carries a copyright protection disclosure, thus it can't be referenced or distributed outside the membership without their permission. Just another example of why T33 was so important -- PUBLIC meetings.

If anyone has video they took with their phones it's important they release it to the public. Embarrassment is a powerful motivator. The Board deserves the embarrassment they've earned. The board needs to stop listening to their lawyers and several autocrats amongst them and start listening to their constituents.

 

Just want to address comments about how disappointed some posters are about turnout. Regular meeting has 20, yesterday had 200 - 10-fold increase. Next meeting??? And the one after that? This is not a flash fix, it is a process. You give up now and things will probably get worse. These people affect your home values and assessment fees. Please show up. Sept 30, 9am, Sundial.

 

Yes jeb, you are right. Nonetheless, I would have liked to have seen the look on their faces had 500-600 people showed up Monday. Their expressions I saw in their faces were varied -- some concerned, some angry, some happy campers, and one, perhaps, embarrassed. Of course, I don't know any of them well enough to really know for sure. Time will tell.

 

I truly hate to be the bearer of bad news, but I composed a mutliple page document with citations from Title 10, plus all of the other horse shit that has been going on, and emailed it to several commissioners last night. To be breif, here is the response I received:

Corporations Division <answers@azcc.gov>
Tue 9/14/2021 8:52 AM
To:

• You

Hello,



We’re just a filing agency and don’t regulate. We would recommend speaking to an attorney.



Thanks in advance!


I am beyond disapponted to hear this as an answer. I have researched filing with the Attorney General's office, as they will investigate consumer fraud. Yes, I do beleive the RCSC is guilty of consumer fraud on many levels, to include, but not limited to misreprenation of the Solar Project and the cost to the Corporation and ultimately to the members. I also beleive the description of what can constitute consumer fraud would also fall under the Solar Expenses, as information was concealled, suppressed and was not disclosed to the members or the board or the community. There is further evidence of this scam as many millions have been paid, yet there is a significant amount of the solar equipment and peripherals not in working order. Consumer fraud also includes intangibles, real estate and consumer services. In researching Title 10, it is still clear to this reader the changing of the quorum was done illegally, as per Title 10, changing the quorum cannot be done solely by the board of directors.

From the Attorney General's website:

The Consumer Litigation Units in Phoenix and Tucson enforce the Arizona Consumer Fraud Act as well as other state and federal consumer protection laws. Consumer fraud, as defined by Arizona law, is any deception, unfair act or practice, false statement, false pretense, false promise or misrepresentation made by a seller or advertiser of merchandise. In addition, concealment, suppression or failure to disclose a material fact may be consumer fraud if it is done with the intent that others rely on such concealment, suppression or nondisclosure. Merchandise may include any objects, wares, goods, commodities, intangibles, real estate or services.

There are several instances where the management of the RCSC has been aware of a need to be in contact with another agency, and blatantly lied about how involved they were, leading to several members of the Board beleiving things were being handled in fair and equitable manner, only to find out later, nothing was done to help further the cause at all.

So, I have no intention of printing the document I created for the Corporation Commission anywhere on this, or any other site. The blow back would be more than I am willing to digest and there is a lot of work put into this document. Just do know there is someone seeking alternative answers to the RCSC dilemma, and will grasp onto any straw I can find. If and when I find a tangible resource who is in a place to be a resource without requiring monies, I will surely let everyone know.

In the meantime, I still feel there is a need to organize the members of Sun City into a cohesive group who can work together to seek solutions. I know they exist out there, I am just needing to dig deeper than I thought.

 

Could you please provide the statute number? I would like to read and understand what it actually says.

 

CMartinez wrote:
“Just do know there is someone seeking alternative answers to the RCSC dilemma, and will grasp onto any straw I can find. If and when I find a tangible resource who is in a place to be a resource without requiring monies, I will surely let everyone know.

In the meantime, I still feel there is a need to organize the members of Sun City into a cohesive group who can work together to seek solutions. I know they exist out there, I am just needing to dig deeper than I thought.”

THANK YOU!

 

yup, I got one of those too, 20-years ago when I filed a complaint over the Board changing the Quorum without member approval.

Yes! It won't get done any other way -- we need leadership and bodies to collect signatures, etc. We'll need money too -- for fees, making copies, and to pay for legal assistance if no member with legal credentials/chutzpah emerges pro bono. We should expect we'll be maligned and threatened just like ARS was when she tried rally opposition 20+ years ago (some still criticize her -- but at least she tried and some things she championed were things we're still trying to accomplish today).

 

FYI, here is the section I found about amending the quorum by the board:

10-11023. Bylaw increasing quorum or voting requirement for members

A. If authorized by the articles of incorporation, members may adopt or amend a bylaw that fixes a greater quorum or voting requirement for members, or of classes of members, than is required by chapters 24 through 40 of this title. The adoption or amendment of a bylaw that adds, changes or deletes a greater quorum or voting requirement for members shall meet the same quorum requirement and shall be adopted by the same vote and classes of members required to take action under the quorum and voting requirement then in effect or proposed to be adopted, whichever is greater.

B. A bylaw that fixes a greater quorum or voting requirement for members under subsection A shall not be adopted, amended or repealed by the board of directors.

 

Says pretty much what I recall from 20 years ago when they violated it. With tongue in cheek, I wonder if Senator Gray and Rep. Payne will now try to pass a state law amending/exempting this on behalf of the RCSC (like they did for Title 33) to absolve the Board of having broken AZ laws?