What is life but an ongoing quest for opportunities to grow in knowledge? Given the recent release of the agenda and the new long range planning proposed budget (is this the 5th or the 6th one since the long range planning committee was disbanded?) I felt is was a good time for a little research unto the state of golf around the United States (i'd use Sun City stats, but who knows what they look like?). Here is some data i was able to find on a couple of sites that will give us at least a picture of what is happening nationally: * According to the National Golf Foundation, there were 28.8 million golfers in the U.S. in 2000, 30 million in 2005, 26.1 million in 2010, 25.5 in 2011 and 25.3 million in 2012. Read more at How Many People Play Golf in the USA? | GolfLink.com. * The number of golfers from 2000 to 2012 dropped by about 12 percent due to the struggling U.S. economy. Most of the decrease is attributed to golfers who were playing less or not at all. Read more at How Many People Play Golf in the USA? | GolfLink.com. * The National Golf Foundation estimates that there were 465.5 million rounds of golf played in the U.S. in 2013. This is down from the 518.4 million rounds played in 2000. Read more at How Many People Play Golf in the USA? | GolfLink.com. And finally this: * Golf is losing more players than it's gaining, as 4.1 million people left the sport in 2013, outpacing the 3.7 million who picked it up last year. Obviously those are worrisome statistics from around the country. Especially given Sun City is on track to invest close to 40 million dollars from the PIF in about a 15 year period for their courses and outbuildings. It may or may not prove to be a sound investment, but what is troubling is even when the RCSC long range planning committee was up and running, they were told they had no say in 75% of the allocations because that decision was already made to spend it on golf. So who made those decisions? Was there ever a collective "hell yes' to plow that kind of monies into a game struggling to stay healthy? The interesting thing is, boards change yearly, and the one constant is the management team. The one thing we do hear from board members is the lament; "it was the board before me that strapped us with these decisions." Be that as it may, here's where the opportunity presents itself, i have listed stats on the state of golf in the US, how about a board member or staffer showing us how those numbers stack up in Sun City. What say ye?
Thanks Bill, What are the activities and facilities that members want to add?* Do those activities have to be paid for by reducing money spent on golf? I understand the frustration many might have re golf, but SC was a golf community from day one. That said there should be funding for other interests as well.*
Good questions fix, and the whole point behind the long range planning committee was to help get their arms around what residents wanted. The argument was those serving on the committee came to it because they had an "agenda." Interesting when you consider many board members come with their own agenda and of course on the outside looking in, who brought on the 40 million dollar golf course renovations agenda. And i would agree, Sun City is a golf course community and always will be. My point is how about if we had spent 20 million on golf course upgrades; or better yet, allocated 1 course every 5 years with that 6 million dollar price taAt the very least, there should have been community discussions about how and where the money was sent.
I am bullheaded *and keep coming back to a great parcel of land on 103rd between Grand and Thunderbird that would accommodate RCSC expansion. *Even if it is not actively listed it could be pursued. Your post regarding the Lakes Club is very interesting. A true community social center. Done right it could be a tremendous *asset to the community. * The work on North and especially Riverview was great but I am just fine playing the other courses. Your point slowing down the golf course upgrades is valid.* * *
Let me again preface this by saying I'm new here. What about money for the arts? Where is the money to update the Sun Bowl. This is a wonderful facility that is being wasted by using it so sparingly. I too would like to see the stats on the golf course use. I would also like to see the research done on the courses upgrades. Has more desert scape been included?
I drool every time i drive by that huge tract of land on 103rd fix. The possibilities are endless. If you check the property records through the county you can find out who owns it. My guess would be the Sun Health Foundation. They own land all over the West Valley, including the piece the old Lakes club sits on. Great isn't it; Sun City residents have donated millions of dollars to them so they could become land barons. There's no question in my mind, the one missing link in Sun City is a true community center. There's no better location than at Lakeview where it's centrally located and the most gorgeous piece of property in the community. But alas, with the bulk of our PIF resources dedicated to golf projects, that need will most likely never be met.
As a member of a community, I know it is important to pay for things that I don't use for the betterment of all. I pay high school taxes to live in a great community even though I have no kids in school. I'm happy to see kids get a great education and pay my fair share for something I don't use. However, I am not happy to pay a highly disproportionate amount for a declining non-essential, which is used by less than 20% of the community. While Sun City ticks all the boxes for me except one, this disproportionate investment in golf (and over-representation in its governance) will likely keep me away. It is an albatross hanging around the neck of SC that needs to be addressed over the long term. If you start amortizing the PIF, the amenities/cost ratio is not what it once was and will likely continue to decline as water costs rise. SC's true potential will never be realized until this issue is reconciled.*
Spot on R; the whole golf debate isn't just locally but across the country. The simple fact of the matter is new age restricted communities most often do not include a community owned golf course. If there is one, it is privately owned and profit driven, not subsidized by the home owners. That should speak volumes to all of living in Sun City. More significantly, your comments regarding those shopping for their 55 plus community are amplified on the website 55Places. There's dozens of comments from potential buyers who have come to understand golf course maintenance comes at a cost. Tragically it's not just what money is paid out for golf, but what is lost in where those dollars could be spent. Sadly, we can't even have these kinds of conversations here. I learned a couple of things in my previous life: The first is listening is the most important aspect in good communication. Secondly, any chance of being successful is by broadening the numbers of folks involved, not reducing it. Finally, this comment you made says it all: SC's true potential will never be realized until this issue is reconciled. It's always about balance.
The three things I remember most from my Economics degree are no Free Lunch, Supply/Demand, and Opportunity Cost...and they all apply to this golf disequilibrium at Sun City. The Opportunity Cost of supporting these golf courses is staggering and I think of the amenities that could be provided for the 80% who do not golf. Times have changed and Sun City must adapt. **
I think 20% is a very generous estimate. I am betting much lower. Might be a good question on Monday morning.
if we are accepting the 20% number of SC Members who play golf what would be the percentage of participants using other RCSC facilities? Does any other activity exceed golf based on number of participants? *For those of you who do not play golf how much does golf in SC cost you? And for those who recently paid for the golf course renovations with their PIF payment how many were not aware that the RCSC was renovating the courses before purchasing.* Golf generates revenue, employs residents, and if renovations are made from the PIF that impacts new members, and they don't seem to be having a problem with the $3500 based on home sales.* Bill you are correct, there are senior communities that are being built without golf courses. And as someone who has been involved with three senior community *"builds" totaling over 2300 homes no golf course is a big negative. One of our three communities does not yet have a golf course and homes are priced accordingly, approx. 20% lower.* I support RCSC activity expansion, and funding for all reasonable activities. I would hope the PIF and annual RCSC assessment can provide whatever is needed.*
All good points fix and the reality is we have golf courses and have to maintain them. Whether golf is revenue neutral is debatable, but i don't worry about it because almost everything in Sun City is subsidized by lot assessment fees. The actual percentage of players in Sun City is less than 20%, seems to me it was about 7000 total a few years back. The reality is the number playing is less important than the number of rounds being played. A person playing once a week is wholly different than someone buying a full play pass, yet they would each count in the percentage of players. The point i made at today's meeting was clear; rather than throwing money at golf, we would be better off getting our arms around what is happening in Sun City relative to golf and then targeting a plan to achieve some quantifiable results as we make the needed improvements. Certainly not the way we have allocated resources of late. The classic example of using data is how after Fairway opened, the RCSC tracked usage numbers and they were off the charts. While 16.2 million was a lot of money, the outcome was staggering. And the good news is, the RCSC has all of the data relative to club usage and rec center visits. Which is why i continue to lobby for a return of the long range planning committee meeting. Ultimately any plans to enhance Sun City and its amenity package should be done in conjunction with a well thought out strategic plan based on needs and the evolving age restricted market place.
